*** Log file opened: 5/30/02 7:56:47 PM

[20:06] CJ-Seeker [~CJ-Seeker@jproxy16.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:07] <BobWestbrook> Hi Allyn :)

[20:07] <CJ-Seeker> I'm here!!

[20:07] GranBland [~GranBland@jproxy13.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:07] <BobWestbrook> Yes! But where is everyone? :)

[20:07] <BobWestbrook> There's Gran!

[20:07] <CJ-Seeker> Hi Gran

[20:08] <CJ-Seeker> Say Bob, Did you happen to see what I did concerning last weeks chat?

[20:08] <BobWestbrook> no, what's that, Allyn?

[20:08] <CJ-Seeker> The road sign thing

[20:08] <CJ-Seeker> well its on my site...

[20:08] <BobWestbrook> oh yeah? cool - let me look

[20:09] <CJ-Seeker> do it sometime at your leasure

[20:09] GranBland [~GranBland@jproxy13.talkcity.com] has quit IRC (GranBland)

[20:09] <CJ-Seeker> Gran you there?

[20:09] <BobWestbrook> Ahh, I see it! Very nice!!

[20:10] <CJ-Seeker> well I liked the idea

[20:10] <CJ-Seeker> Haven't heard from Stan today, have you?

[20:10] GranBland [~GranBland@jproxy12.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:10] <BobWestbrook> Yes, we talked today

[20:10] <GranBland> 6:->finally got in

[20:10] <BobWestbrook> Is that your voice reading it?

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> Hi Gran

[20:11] <GranBland> 6before i could see you but couldnt move anything

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> No

[20:11] <GranBland> 6howdee y'll

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> Hello again!

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> I like it, Allyn - very well done

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> Good to see ya Gran

[20:11] <GranBland> 6Bob did yo get my email today

[20:11] <GranBland> 6good to be with all of you

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> thanks

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> Yes, I did Gran, and responded

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> I plane to build on that idea

[20:12] <GranBland> 6OK well I meant that I didnt need it after all

[20:12] <BobWestbrook> You'll see my reply, Gran :)

[20:12] <GranBland> 6doctor putting me on something less expensive

[20:12] <GranBland> 6OK dear I was on a while ago but then got off as had family over

[20:12] MarvBMar [~MarvBMar@jproxy13.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:12] <GranBland> 6my grandson planting things for me

[20:12] <MarvBMar> SWhalom

[20:12] <BobWestbrook> Allyn, I like the vocal reading

[20:12] <MarvBMar> shalom!!!

[20:13] <BobWestbrook> Hi Marion!!

[20:13] <CJ-Seeker> well I hope it works for you Gran...let the medicine get into your system...so don't stop before they are gone

[20:13] <MarvBMar> hi Bob

[20:13] <CJ-Seeker> Hey Marion

[20:13] <GranBland> 6thanks again Bob

[20:13] <CJ-Seeker> Thanks Bob

[20:13] <MarvBMar> what are you taking Gran

[20:13] <MarvBMar> Hi Seeker

[20:13] <GranBland> 6I sure have asked Gods blessing on all of you that are praying for my grandaughters mother I do not know anything else about her condition yet'

[20:14] <CJ-Seeker> yes Gran

[20:14] <GranBland> 6my non sleeping condition marian

[20:14] <MarvBMar> what happened to her gran?

[20:14] <GranBland> 6missing a lot of hours over the last 3 months

[20:14] <GranBland> 6but I did sleep better last night

[20:14] <GranBland> 6she has developed fluid around her heart

[20:14] <GranBland> 6and is in early heart failure

[20:14] <CJ-Seeker> Bob, Has Stan fixed the forum problem yet?

[20:14] <BobWestbrook> Not yet

[20:14] <MarvBMar> I will keep her in prayer

[20:14] <GranBland> 6my grandaughter went up to TN to be with her last nght

[20:15] <GranBland> 6thanks much Marian

[20:15] <CJ-Seeker> requires a password and then still won't let me in

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> What version is the reader using, Allyn?

[20:15] <MarvBMar> gee seeker I got in without logging in tonight

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> translation

[20:15] <GranBland> 6I do not know if she is saved or not or the whole family for that matater

[20:15] <GranBland> 6she was my sons first wife

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> oh, it's fixed, Marion?

[20:15] <CJ-Seeker> Hmm...I think new kjv

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> I like it

[20:15] <CJ-Seeker> maybe

[20:15] <CJ-Seeker> me too

[20:16] <BobWestbrook> OK, let's pray....

[20:16] <MarvBMar> I don't know Bob but usually I have to log in here & it takes forever but not tonight

[20:16] <GranBland> 6yes

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[20:16] <BobWestbrook> Lord, thank you for your covenant of peace that you have made with us

[20:16] CJ-Seeker [~CJ-Seeker@jproxy12.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:17] <BobWestbrook> that we may know you, even though we are entirely unworthy

[20:17] <GranBland> 6yes thank you father

[20:17] <BobWestbrook> Thank you, Jesus, for the atonement in your blood

[20:17] <BobWestbrook> and your powerful resurrection that gives us life and hope

[20:17] <GranBland> 6oh jesus praise your holy name

[20:17] <CJ-Seeker> we worship you o Lord

[20:18] <BobWestbrook> You're the greatest, Jesus, the champion of Yahweh

[20:18] <CJ-Seeker> Amen

[20:18] <BobWestbrook> We pray for Gran's relative, that your mercy and grace would be showered on her

[20:18] <MarvBMar> Yes amen

[20:18] <BobWestbrook> let her know of your great love for her

[20:19] <MarvBMar> Touch her & heal her Lord & lead her to salvation through you

[20:19] <BobWestbrook> And be with us tonight, shine your face on us, our God, for we are your children

[20:19] <BobWestbrook> Teach us, open your word to our hearts

[20:19] <GranBland> 6yes Lord

[20:20] <MarvBMar> May we feel your presence in a greater way tonight

[20:20] <BobWestbrook> We bless and praise your name, Almighty God! Amen

[20:20] <GranBland> 6amen

[20:20] <MarvBMar> clear our minds from the cares of the day & teach us new things in your word

[20:20] <CJ-Seeker> Amen....BRB....need to change my eyeglasses

[20:20] <MarvBMar> amen

[20:21] <GranBland> 6I need to do that but not till next month

[20:21] <BobWestbrook> OK, if you recall, we stopped at Jeremiah 31 verse 29

[20:21] <GranBland> 6how is everyone doing tonight

[20:21] <GranBland> 6OK Bob thats right

[20:21] <MarvBMar> I got new glasses & they put the bifocal higher

[20:22] <MarvBMar> hard to get used to especially when walking

[20:22] <BobWestbrook> Doing pretty well, Gran!

[20:22] <GranBland> 6that is hard Marian I got tri fovalcal

[20:22] <MarvBMar> I wasn't able to get in for a couple of weeks

[20:22] <GranBland> 6good Bob

[20:23] <CJ-Seeker> Yeah..I got Bifocals and they don't work well for me at the computer or for work

[20:23] <GranBland> 6I did sleep better last night

[20:23] <CJ-Seeker> Ok Ready Bob

[20:23] <MarvBMar> ready

[20:23] <BobWestbrook> I've had good eyes until a few years ago, now reading is a challenge - guess I'll have to get to the eye doc :)

[20:23] <BobWestbrook> OK, here we go

[20:23] <GranBland> 6me too

[20:24] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:29-30 NIV) "In those days people will no longer say, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.' {30} Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes--his own teeth will be set on edge.

[20:24] <GranBland> 6oh me to as in ready

[20:24] <GranBland> 6thats a pretty good example of feeling sorry for oneself

[20:24] <BobWestbrook> Remember, the context here is speaking of a future time when God is going to watch over Israel to build, not destroy

[20:24] <CJ-Seeker> a new concept being introduced to them

[20:24] <GranBland> 6yes

[20:25] <BobWestbrook> Yes - let me hear your impression on v 29-30 first

[20:25] <BobWestbrook> what does it mean?

[20:25] <GranBland> 6yes Seeker lets hear it

[20:25] <MarvBMar> everyone will be accountable for their own sin

[20:25] <CJ-Seeker> It's time to own up for our own mistakes

[20:25] <MarvBMar> not judged corporately

[20:26] <GranBland> 6responsibility

[20:26] <BobWestbrook> As opposed to what? Apparently some other situation that had become a reality as to be expressed in a proverb like saying

[20:26] <CJ-Seeker> that's how I take it

[20:26] <GranBland> 6for ourselves

[20:26] <BobWestbrook> The people felt that they were being punished for the sins of the ancestors

[20:26] <CJ-Seeker> I always kinda thought that their was an immature attitude and the blame game

[20:26] <MarvBMar> God had said that to the 4th generation

[20:26] <GranBland> 6yes thats what they had been taught before then

[20:26] <BobWestbrook> And this, folks, is true of the Jewish people, and is most accutely felt when one reads literature regarding the Holocaust

[20:27] <GranBland> 6yes

[20:27] <BobWestbrook> with the ubiquitious question "Why"?

[20:27] <CJ-Seeker> its their heritage?

[20:27] <BobWestbrook> Why did this happened? Are we being punished for our sins, or for the sins of those who were before us?

[20:28] <BobWestbrook> This is a very sensitive topic, and of course we need to handle it with sensitivity

[20:28] <BobWestbrook> but Biblically

[20:29] <BobWestbrook> I wasn't sure which direction to take this chat tonight, but the Spirit seemed to be leading towards some other Scriptures in consideration of this subject

[20:29] RetroRyan [~RetroRyan@jproxy16.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:30] <CJ-Seeker> we will just go with the flow

[20:30] <BobWestbrook> Because, in those two verses, is the implication, that yes, some of the things that have happened to the Jews were indeed because of the sins of their ancestors

[20:30] <BobWestbrook> otherwise, God would have no need to make the contrast that in the future, it would not be that way

[20:30] <BobWestbrook> everybody with me? :)

[20:30] <BobWestbrook> Hi Ryan :)

[20:30] <RetroRyan> Hi. Sorry I'm late!

[20:31] <MarvBMar> yhi Ryan

[20:31] <GranBland> 6oh is taht what it is

[20:31] <MarvBMar> we just started Ryan

[20:31] <GranBland> 6Ryan welcome

[20:31] <CJ-Seeker> Matthew 27:24-25

[20:31] <BobWestbrook> So, before we venture further in Jeremiah 31, I'd like to veer off and examine this topic some more

[20:31] <RetroRyan> Hi y'all

[20:31] <MarvBMar> yes gran!!!! hehhe

[20:31] <BobWestbrook> (Matthew 27:24-25 NIV) When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" {25} All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

[20:32] <CJ-Seeker> thanks Bob

[20:32] <BobWestbrook> Once again, we must be very sensitive in the handling of this topic, because it has been so horribly abused by Christians

[20:32] <CJ-Seeker> Hi Ryan

[20:32] <MarvBMar> so all the people were saying it

[20:32] <GranBland> 6what I said was in Matt 27:25

[20:32] <BobWestbrook> or should I say, has been used to abuse the Jews

[20:32] <GranBland> 6actually they said let his blood be on us and our children

[20:33] <GranBland> 6NKJ

[20:33] <CJ-Seeker> Well I am not one who could be accused of that Bob..and not sure any here can be

[20:33] <MarvBMar> seeker??

[20:33] <BobWestbrook> Regardless of the conclusions that may be drawn from the Scriptures, no one has a right to fling accusations at the Jews

[20:33] <BobWestbrook> yes

[20:33] <GranBland> 6yes for sure Bob but it was the rabble not the general population that was making up that crowd

[20:34] <BobWestbrook> I would like to go now to Zechariah 11

[20:34] <CJ-Seeker> But I get your point Bob

[20:34] <GranBland> 6no Bob for sure as the Father had it all planned

[20:34] <BobWestbrook> to a passage of Scripture that invariably makes me weep and groan when I read it

[20:34] <MarvBMar> I think the crowd was incited by the pharrisees & their cohorts

[20:34] <RetroRyan> I'm there

[20:34] <CJ-Seeker> ok, lets weep together

[20:34] <BobWestbrook> starting at v 4

[20:35] <GranBland> 6oh deaf me I lost Zec

[20:35] <GranBland> 6dear me

[20:35] <BobWestbrook> first, take a few minutes to read v 4 to the end of the chapter, then let me know when you are done, and we will proceed

[20:35] <CJ-Seeker> ok sec

[20:35] <RetroRyan> ok

[20:36] <MarvBMar> near thre end of OT

[20:37] <CJ-Seeker> done

[20:37] <RetroRyan> Thirty pieces of silver in verse 12 - is this not the prophecy fortelling of Judas Iscariot's betrayal of the Lord Jesus?

[20:37] <CJ-Seeker> yes

[20:37] <BobWestbrook> To give you a broad overview, this is a prophecy regarding the rejection of Jesus, the destruction and dispersion of the Jews in 70 AD, and their fate in the interim

[20:37] <BobWestbrook> Yes

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> But it is expressed in very personal, emotional terms

[20:38] <CJ-Seeker> and the lack of following the Law correctly by the Jewish Leaders?

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> yes

[20:38] <RetroRyan> Ahh that's true

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:4 NIV) This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter.

[20:39] <BobWestbrook> This is the Father speaking to the Son, telling Him to pasture the flock, that is Israel - to be sent as the Shepherd for the sheep

[20:39] <BobWestbrook> but it is a flock already marked for slaughter, because of their subsequent rejection of the Shepherd, as we will see

[20:39] <CJ-Seeker> yes

[20:40] <CJ-Seeker> agreed

[20:40] <GranBland> 6yes

[20:40] <BobWestbrook> remember, as we examine this, that parts of it are taking a broad view, that is, the long term consequences of that rejection

[20:40] <CJ-Seeker> true

[20:40] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:5 NIV) Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them.

[20:41] <RetroRyan> Of course not all Israel was slaughtered ... God kept a remnant

[20:41] <BobWestbrook> what we see here is other people, "buyers" who are opportunistically taking advantage of the vulnerability of the flock

[20:41] <BobWestbrook> for profit

[20:41] <GranBland> 6yes HE always has a remnant

[20:41] <BobWestbrook> that's right, Ryan

[20:42] <BobWestbrook> How often, even to the 20th century, have Gentiles stolen Jewish property?

[20:42] <CJ-Seeker> lets identify who the worthless shepherd is..Is he singular or a group?

[20:42] <BobWestbrook> And not only that, but done it in the name of the Lord, thinking that God's punishment on the Jews was their own good fortune

[20:43] <RetroRyan> Very often.. it happened in Russia in this century

[20:43] <GranBland> 6yes because they get blamed for all wrongs done

[20:43] <BobWestbrook> at the end of the chapter, Seeker?

[20:43] <CJ-Seeker> yes

[20:43] <BobWestbrook> We'll get there :)

[20:43] <CJ-Seeker> sorry if I am ahead

[20:43] <CJ-Seeker> I'll wait

[20:43] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:43] <GranBland> 6It is hard for me to see that Christians actrually believed all that garbage during those time of Hiter

[20:44] <BobWestbrook> And see, back in v 5, those "buyers" who buy the sheep only to abuse them apparently go unpunished from God

[20:44] <MarvBMar> it is going on now in europe gran

[20:44] <CJ-Seeker> But How much did we know..especially here in the USA

[20:44] <GranBland> 6they believed that all the bad stuff that happened was the fault of the jews

[20:44] <CJ-Seeker> we mostly wanted to ignore any thing going on over there

[20:44] <BobWestbrook> which coincides with the question the Jews raise "Why, God, did you let this happen to us"?

[20:44] <RetroRyan> Keep in mind that much of Eyropean Christianity during WWII was either liberal or neo-orthodox, and in both cases they did not care about the Jewish people.

[20:45] <GranBland> 6well from what i have read even many Jews here did not believe what was going on and did nothing

[20:45] <GranBland> 6and did not want anything done about it

[20:45] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:6 NIV) For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands."

[20:45] <BobWestbrook> God says "I will no longer have pity" - some of the saddest words ever penned

[20:45] <GranBland> 6rabbis were contacted here and they would not believe

[20:45] <BobWestbrook> "I will not rescue them"

[20:46] <CJ-Seeker> and so this began when, from your point of view Bob

[20:46] <BobWestbrook> And He did not

[20:46] <GranBland> 6yes so sad but God had a plan

[20:46] <BobWestbrook> it began, in AD 29, reached a climax in AD 70, and continued through 1945

[20:46] <CJ-Seeker> ok...following you..thanks

[20:47] <GranBland> 6yes thanks Bob

[20:47] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:7 NIV) So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.

[20:47] <RetroRyan> Unfortunately it took the death of six million Jewish people and countless others

[20:47] <BobWestbrook> So, the Son obediently pastured the sheep who had been put into His care

[20:47] <CJ-Seeker> yes

[20:47] <MarvBMar> mine says beauty & bonds

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> Even though He felt at times like His coming was to no avail

[20:48] <CJ-Seeker> Breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:8-9 NIV) In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them {9} and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> These words of Jesus are so sad

[20:48] <RetroRyan> Beauty and Bonds is capitalized in my KJV - is there some personification happening there Bob?

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> "I will not be your shepherd"

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> Yes, perhaps, Ryan

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> "Let the dying die"

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> This, is the answer to the question the Jews ask - "Why didn't you do anything to stop the Holocaust"?

[20:50] <BobWestbrook> This is painful truth, but truth nonetheless

[20:50] <CJ-Seeker> was it for punishment or because of a lack of acceptance when they should have

[20:50] <BobWestbrook> The "three shepherds" were in 70 AD - at that time, the Jews had split into three factions in Jerusalem, each fighting each other

[20:51] <BobWestbrook> which contributed to their downfall by the Romans

[20:51] <GranBland> 6Bob Zechariah was a prophet wasn't he? and this is in the Torah?

[20:51] <MarvBMar> what were their names Bob?

[20:51] <BobWestbrook> yes, Gran

[20:51] <BobWestbrook> their names were....

[20:51] <GranBland> 6three factions Bob? who werre they

[20:52] <RetroRyan> Three factions? - I didn't know that! I'll have to look into that some more. Is that perhaps found in the writings of Josephus?

[20:53] <BobWestbrook> Yes,it is Ryan

[20:53] <BobWestbrook> I thought I had the names handy, can't find them

[20:53] <GranBland> 6Bob is one book of Josephus the same as another?

[20:53] <RetroRyan> Excellent. I have a copy so I'll take a closer look.

[20:54] <BobWestbrook> No, there are different volumes, Gran

[20:54] <GranBland> 6oh dear me

[20:54] <GranBland> 6guess I got the wrong one

[20:54] <BobWestbrook> But anyway, the three shepherd were the leader of the three factions

[20:54] <RetroRyan> Ok

[20:54] <MarvBMar> some suggest the 3 could represent the rulers in Israel,.... Kings, Priests & Prophets

[20:55] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:10 NIV) Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

[20:55] <CJ-Seeker> and that covenant was what?

[20:55] <MarvBMar> or the last kings of Judah or certain high priests

[20:55] <BobWestbrook> This covenant with the other nations was this - that they would not be allowed to touch or harm the Jews

[20:55] <CJ-Seeker> your quick

[20:55] <GranBland> 6oh my

[20:55] <BobWestbrook> and God broke it, with the consequence that they were horribly abused over the centuries

[20:56] <RetroRyan> In the inquisition etc...

[20:56] <CJ-Seeker> very good observations Bob

[20:56] <BobWestbrook> It was, as previously warned in the Torah, the consequences of their unfaithfulness to Him

[20:56] <CJ-Seeker> except the inqusitions was not against jews

[20:56] <GranBland> 6crusades

[20:56] <CJ-Seeker> nor the crusades

[20:57] <MarvBMar> especially during the second world war

[20:57] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:11 NIV) It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

[20:57] <GranBland> 6well supposedly the crusades were not but a lot of them were killed anyway

[20:57] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:10-11 NIV) Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. {11} It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

[20:57] <CJ-Seeker> I'm sure that is true Gran

[20:58] <GranBland> 6yes and muslims that had accepted Jesus also

[20:58] <BobWestbrook> Those in the flock "marked for slaughter" were watching the Messiah, and knew the reason this covenant had been revoked

[20:58] <GranBland> 6because most the those crudaders wrer just after treasure

[20:58] <BobWestbrook> Remember, this is Jesus speaking in first person here

[20:58] <GranBland> 6yes I see that

[20:59] <GranBland> 6hard stuff to take

[20:59] <CJ-Seeker> ok..but it carried for generations..is that what we are saying

[20:59] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:12-13 NIV) I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. {13} And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

[20:59] <BobWestbrook> when the flock detested Him and the Shepherd was terminated by the flock, He allegorically asked them whether He was going to get any back wages for His shepherding efforts.

[20:59] <MarvBMar> once the staff was broken the favor was gone

[21:00] <BobWestbrook> He said, "If you think it best, give me my pay, but if not, keep it." (v. 12) What, if any, was the amount He had earned by faithfully tending them for so many years, through so many precarious situations?

[21:00] <RetroRyan> Oh.. I get it!

[21:00] <BobWestbrook> They decided that the amount was 30 pieces of silver. What bitterness we hear in his voice as He throws the money back at them, into the temple. "This is the 'handsome price' at which you have valued me? This is what I am worth after all of those years of taking care of you?"

[21:00] <CJ-Seeker> but it is also a fullfillment the Christ was the Messiah

[21:01] <BobWestbrook> This is so sad

[21:01] <GranBland> 6yes

[21:02] <BobWestbrook> Jesus foretold that the result of this rejection would be, among other things, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. "For the days shall come upon you when your enemies will throw up a bank before you, and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:33-34 NASB)

[21:02] <RetroRyan> It is sad to read this prophecy but necessary

[21:02] <GranBland> 6I wonder if anyone reads this

[21:02] <GranBland> 6Jews that is

[21:02] <MarvBMar> Bob how does this verse about the silver be jesus speaking

[21:02] <BobWestbrook> "the price at which they priced me" Marion

[21:02] <GranBland> 6marian it has to be him as he says is this all I am worth to you

[21:03] <MarvBMar> oh ok

[21:03] <MarvBMar> but He didn't throw it back in the temple

[21:03] <GranBland> 6no but Judas did

[21:04] <GranBland> 6and they bought the potters fild wit h it

[21:04] <MarvBMar> but if we say it is Jesus speaking????

[21:04] <GranBland> 6field

[21:04] <GranBland> 6the priests did

[21:04] <BobWestbrook> It's an allegory - don't try to make every detail fit exactly

[21:04] <GranBland> 6yes an alllegory

[21:04] <MarvBMar> ok

[21:05] <GranBland> 6have never heard this before

[21:05] <BobWestbrook> So, thinking back to those initial verses in Jeremiah 31, we remember the proverb that the Jews have been saying all these years:

[21:05] <BobWestbrook> 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.'

[21:05] <GranBland> 6yes

[21:05] <BobWestbrook> Now, to Allyn's question

[21:05] <CJ-Seeker> \0/

[21:05] <BobWestbrook> :)

[21:06] <BobWestbrook> Initially, I thought the "foolish shepherd" may be speaking of the antichrist, but now I'm not inclined to that interpretation

[21:06] <MarvBMar> which verse was that again Bob

[21:06] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:15-16 NIV) Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. {16} For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs.

[21:07] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 11:17 NIV) "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!" An Oracle

[21:07] <BobWestbrook> I now believe that the "foolish shepherd" is a group, the same group castigated in Ezekiel 34

[21:08] <BobWestbrook> in other words, in place of the True Shepherd, who was rejected, false shepherds would arise, leading Israel away from God with their religion

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[21:08] <BobWestbrook> Therefore the people wander like sheep oppressed for lack of a shepherd.

[21:08] <BobWestbrook> 3 "My anger burns against the shepherds, and I will punish the leaders;

[21:09] <RetroRyan> Rabbinical Judaism?

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> That's Zechariah 10:2-3

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> That's right, Ryan

[21:09] <CJ-Seeker> Yes..I agree, it is anyone who is raised up in the position and leads foolishly

[21:09] <GranBland> 6sure sounds lke it

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> (Ezekiel 34:2 NIV) "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock?

[21:10] <MarvBMar> Jesus said this too about the Pharrasses

[21:10] <BobWestbrook> And as we saw when we looked at Ezekiel a few weeks back...

[21:10] <GranBland> 6but that scripture seems to have set a pattern for the world leaders

[21:10] <BobWestbrook> those bogus shepherds will be removed and replaced with the Good Shepherd

[21:10] <GranBland> 6yes so plaese come soon Lord Jesus

[21:10] <piks7275> :-) hi friends

[21:10] <BobWestbrook> (Ezekiel 34:10 NIV) This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

[21:11] <GranBland> 6piks shalom

[21:11] <RetroRyan> Hi Piks!

[21:11] <CJ-Seeker> hi piks

[21:11] <BobWestbrook> (Ezekiel 34:12 NIV) As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.

[21:11] <BobWestbrook> The flock has been scattered, leaderless, vulnerable, when the rejected their True Shepherd

[21:11] <CJ-Seeker> ok...got to go now..I will follow up later

[21:11] <BobWestbrook> and He said " I will not be your Shepherd" when they rejected Him

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[21:12] <MarvBMar> hi piks

[21:12] <piks7275> hi

[21:12] <BobWestbrook> but now, He retracts that and says.....

[21:12] <GranBland> 6OK see ya Allyn

[21:12] <GranBland> 6god bless

[21:12] <BobWestbrook> (Ezekiel 34:13 NIV) I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

[21:12] <MarvBMar> God Bless seeker

[21:12] <RetroRyan> And they were scattered all over the place ... Russia, Ethiopia, Morocco, France, etc.

[21:12] <BobWestbrook> (Ezekiel 34:14-15 NIV) I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. {15} I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD.

[21:12] <BobWestbrook> Right, Ryan

[21:13] <BobWestbrook> (Ezekiel 34:22-24 NIV) I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. {23} I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. {24} I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.

[21:13] <RetroRyan> Bye Allyn

[21:13] <BobWestbrook> God has broken, and God will restore

[21:13] <GranBland> 6yes

[21:13] <RetroRyan> And He did in 1948 and 1967.

[21:14] <BobWestbrook> "'I will make a covenant of peace with them

[21:14] <BobWestbrook> Ezekiel 34:25

[21:14] <BobWestbrook> Which leads us back to Jeremiah - the "new covenant"

[21:14] <GranBland> 6I will have to leave you family getting very tired need to take shower and get to bed soon

[21:14] <GranBland> 6i love you all shalom and God bless you

[21:14] <BobWestbrook> Night, Gran - Love you too

[21:15] <GranBland> 6byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee see you tomorrow night

[21:15] <RetroRyan> Shalom Gram!

[21:15] <piks7275> SHALOM GRAN

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[21:15] <BobWestbrook> Any questions, comments before we proceed?

[21:15] <RetroRyan> None here

[21:16] <MarvBMar> Has God made a new covenant with the Jews

[21:16] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:31 NIV) "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

[21:16] <BobWestbrook> Yes, He has Marion

[21:16] <MarvBMar> I don't mean through Jesus but is it written when this new covenant was started

[21:17] <BobWestbrook> The new covenant is through Jesus

[21:17] <MarvBMar> ok

[21:17] <BobWestbrook> and only through Him

[21:17] <MarvBMar> I thought maybe it was something else added

[21:17] <BobWestbrook> But.... it is probably one of the most misunderstood topics among Christians

[21:17] <MarvBMar> amen

[21:18] <RetroRyan> The death of the Lord Jesus upon the Cross provides salvation for the Jew and the Gentile.

[21:18] <BobWestbrook> because, what we call the "New Testament" is a covenant with the Jews!

[21:18] <MarvBMar> amen

[21:18] <MarvBMar> yes

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[21:20] <BobWestbrook> And it's only through the Good News of Jesus that we Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise of Messiah Yeshua, to quote Paul from Ephesians

[21:20] <MarvBMar> yes Praise the Lord

[21:20] <RetroRyan> We Gentiles are grafted into the vine!

[21:20] <BobWestbrook> But, first, and foremost, it is a covenant with Israel, and a covenant that we have only just barely seen the first enactment of

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> It is a covenant in blood, as was the first covenant, the "old" one

[21:21] <MarvBMar> yes

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> and here are the details:

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:31 NIV) "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:32 NIV) It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD.

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> It will be a superior covenant to the one that was broken

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:33 NIV) "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

[21:22] <BobWestbrook> The Torah, the Law, will not be merely recited by rote, but will reside in people's hearts

[21:22] <BobWestbrook> It is a spiritual regeneration from the inside - being born of the Spirit of God

[21:23] <MarvBMar> yes putting it on their foreheads does no good

[21:23] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:34 NIV) No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

[21:23] <MarvBMar> what a beautiful promise

[21:24] <BobWestbrook> "They will ALL know me!" - this, certainly, indicates a mass regeneration of the Jewish people

[21:24] <MarvBMar> else where it says that all Israel will be saved

[21:24] <BobWestbrook> We can all relate individually to this new covenant, because these are the things that happened to us individually when we were born of God's Spirit through Messiah...

[21:24] <BobWestbrook> but...

[21:25] <BobWestbrook> there is a much broader fulfillment of this yet to come

[21:25] <RetroRyan> Right

[21:25] <BobWestbrook> for the Jews

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> "they will be my people" - or as Isaiah puts it,

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> "once again He will choose Israel"

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> (Zechariah 2:12-13 NIV) The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. {13} Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."

[21:27] <RetroRyan> Amen

[21:27] <BobWestbrook> Now, we have looked at some very severe verses earlier, but we must emphasis that the end of God's compassion will be even more forcefully enacted

[21:28] <MarvBMar> & we are part of this because we are grafted in!!!

[21:28] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:10 NIV) "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'

[21:28] <BobWestbrook> He who said "I will not be your Shepherd" will come back to shepherd His flock Israel

[21:29] <BobWestbrook> (Isaiah 40:11 NIV) He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

[21:30] <RetroRyan> A great verse exposing God's attribute of compassion

[21:30] <BobWestbrook> Whew! What a wonderful compassionate God

[21:30] <MarvBMar> yes amen

[21:30] <BobWestbrook> (Hosea 6:1 NIV) "Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds.

[21:31] <MarvBMar> Bob what do Jews say about these verses?

[21:31] <BobWestbrook> This, will be the prayer of Israel, and we, God's servants, are here to assist in the process

[21:32] <RetroRyan> Not only will God physically heal Israel, but he will also spiritually heal all who come unto Him to receive salvation

[21:32] <MarvBMar> So many in Israel do not follow God at all

[21:32] <BobWestbrook> Well, Marion, I would think that many are not yet quite ready to frankly look at these things, but, it will happen, in time, we can be absolutely certain of that

[21:33] <MarvBMar> for sure

[21:33] <BobWestbrook> As Christians, we must be extremely sensitive, realizing where the process has progressed to - there will come a day, when we will be able to speak more frankly of these things, in love

[21:34] <RetroRyan> And indeed I've noticed Jewish people more open these days

[21:34] <BobWestbrook> But, we know that the process is now enacted, and we are here to expedite it in love, in whatever way the Master leads us to

[21:34] <BobWestbrook> yes, Ryan, it's unprecedented, but you ain't seen NUTHIN yet! :)

[21:35] <MarvBMar> the little I have seen of Messianic Believers is beautiful how they love the Lord & worship HIM

[21:35] <BobWestbrook> Ultimately, it will not be us that convinces them, but the Spirit of God

[21:35] <BobWestbrook> Yes

[21:35] <MarvBMar> of course

[21:35] <RetroRyan> Amen

[21:36] <BobWestbrook> And that's part of it - demonstrating that vitality, that spiritual reality, that kind of meaningful, personal relationship with Hashem

[21:37] <BobWestbrook> continuing....

[21:38] <RetroRyan> ok

[21:38] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:35 NIV) This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD Almighty is his name:

[21:38] <BobWestbrook> (impressive credentials, huh!) :)

[21:38] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 31:36-37 NIV) "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." {37} This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD.

[21:38] <RetroRyan> :-)

[21:38] <MarvBMar> I love a program called Jewish Jewels It shows Messianic believers & teach on a topic each week

[21:39] <MarvBMar> sad but they have not had any new programs in about a year

[21:39] <BobWestbrook> OK, folks, if you get up tomorrow, and the sun is missing, and the moon and the stars don't show up at night.... then that's the likelihood that "Replacement Theology" has any merit

[21:40] <MarvBMar> heheheheh

[21:40] <BobWestbrook> :)

[21:40] <RetroRyan> The existence of a distinct Jewish people is evidence for the existence of God - He kept them and preserved them

[21:40] <BobWestbrook> exactamundo, Ryan! :)

[21:40] <BobWestbrook> powerful evidence

[21:40] <MarvBMar> & look how He is still keeping them*

[21:40] <BobWestbrook> irrefutable evidence

[21:41] <MarvBMar> to get to where they are now is all because of God

[21:42] <BobWestbrook> Look at those words "because of all they have done" - EVEN IF the Jews share some culpability in the death of Messiah (and we Gentiles do also) - even so God has not rejected them

[21:42] <MarvBMar> to win the wars ... they had nothing much against Egypt etc.

[21:42] <RetroRyan> Absolutely... I still have a tough time convincing my conservative Presbyterian friends though...

[21:43] <MarvBMar> Bob it looks like God will not hold them accountable because of Jesus

[21:43] <BobWestbrook> Well, unfortunately, it's for the same reason that the "religious folks" always rejected prophets - they don't know and believe the Scriptures, and deny the power of God

[21:43] <RetroRyan> But even some of the adherents to Replacement Theology are starting to come around... but not yet at the leadership levels.

[21:44] <RetroRyan> I'll stop my babbling

[21:44] <RetroRyan> :-)

[21:44] <BobWestbrook> the same mentality that Jesus so fiercely denounced is rampant in Christianity - empty religion

[21:44] <BobWestbrook> :)

[21:44] <MarvBMar> sad but true

[21:45] <RetroRyan> That's right

[21:45] <BobWestbrook> It would be to many of the so-called Christian leaders that Jesus would be saying "you snakes, you brood of vipers" if he were to make an appearance in churches

[21:46] <BobWestbrook> Because they are afflicted with the same disease - they love to be seen and respected, but the love of God and His Word is not in their hearts

[21:46] <MarvBMar> yes ...I knew you not!!!!!!

[21:47] <BobWestbrook> Ok, friends, thanks for your attention and participation :)

[21:47] <BobWestbrook> It's always wonderful to share these things with you

[21:47] <BobWestbrook> now I gotta run :)

[21:48] <MarvBMar> Thank you Bob

[21:48] <MarvBMar> God bless you

[21:48] <MarvBMar> I appreciate all your hard work

[21:48] <BobWestbrook> thank YOU, Marion!

[21:48] <MarvBMar> It is not easy to lead a study like this

[21:49] <MarvBMar> Nite

[21:49] <MarvBMar> Blessings

[21:49] <BobWestbrook> Shalom! :)

[21:49] <MarvBMar> shalom

[21:49] <MarvBMar> I have to go too Ryan

[21:50] <MarvBMar> I am so glad you found your way to our group

[21:50] <MarvBMar> Good night , God bless you

[21:51] <RetroRyan> Yes, Bob. It is hard to believe that some folks believe that God can provide salvation to all yet He cannot fulfill His promises regarding Israel.

[21:52] <BobWestbrook> Yes, Ryan

[21:53] <BobWestbrook> Good night, friend - may the Lord bless you greatly!

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