*** Log file opened: 5/2/02 7:56:13 PM

[19:56] <BobWestbrook> Hi Friends!!! :)

[19:57] <Netia19> HI Bob

[19:57] <BobWestbrook> Maybe we should start a "Frequent Chatter" Club :)

[19:58] <BobWestbrook> I'm not sure what the rewards would be - maybe a "Bible Prophecy Chat" baseball cap? LOL

[19:58] <Bezalel3> Sure, after 100 chats, the next one's free....:-)

[19:58] <BobWestbrook> great idea! :)

[19:58] <Netia19> did you hear that us cngress voted over wwelling to cupport Isreal

[19:58] <BobWestbrook> Yes, Netia, I did! Good for them!

[19:58] <BobWestbrook> I was trying to find a transcript of the resolutions, but no success

[19:59] <BobWestbrook> It's interesting how much more pro-Israel Congress is (and has been)

[19:59] <Netia19> i was so proud to be an Anercian

[19:59] <BobWestbrook> :)

[19:59] <Bezalel3> The White House response was interesting....they said it was better timing than a week ago.

[19:59] <Netia19> oh yea

[19:59] <Netia19> sure

[20:00] <BobWestbrook> Yes, well, unfortunately the White House has been playing politics more than standing on principle regarding Israel

[20:00] <Bezalel3> Yes, Bob. Very unfortunate. Bush is wasting all his good efforts at the beginning of the war on terror.

[20:00] <Netia19> i was being a tad un Chrirst like

[20:01] <BobWestbrook> "A Palestinian state must be achieved by negotiating an end to occupation" that's the most recent statement of our President

[20:01] <BobWestbrook> He's going to find himself on a collision course with El Shaddai

[20:01] <Bezalel3> With no definition of what areas are considered occupied.

[20:02] <Netia19> p;ease forgive me

[20:02] <BobWestbrook> Listening to the pundits, their almost universal quite smug that some kind of Palestinian state is a given

[20:02] <BobWestbrook> WRONG

[20:02] <BobWestbrook> That's ok, Netia - emotions run high on this issue

[20:02] <Bezalel3> The Lord will keep Arafat's heart hardened, and he'll mess up the "peace" again.

[20:03] <Netia19> were does he base his thinking

[20:03] <BobWestbrook> Yes, you heard that there is now talk about a "peace summit" this summer?

[20:03] <BobWestbrook> Who, Netia? the President?

[20:03] <Bezalel3> BRB, doggy needs me....:-)

[20:03] <Netia19> yes

[20:04] <BobWestbrook> Unfortunately, not from the Bible - he's listening to the wisdom of the world that runs contrary to God's wisdom

[20:04] <BobWestbrook> That the only path to "peace" is for Israel to relinquish land granted her by the Lord

[20:05] <BobWestbrook> I have to show you guys something that is perhaps amusing in a warped way - some pictures of Arafat, face contorted in rage: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27316

[20:05] <Netia19> what right do we has Amercans to ask the Isrealy people to give up anything

[20:06] <BobWestbrook> He really looks like a demented man in these pictures

[20:06] <Bezalel3> back

[20:06] <BobWestbrook> Good question, Netia - what right does any party in the world have to demand that? None

[20:07] <Netia19> back i put this inn my fav

[20:07] <BobWestbrook> And Ezekiel 36 hints of that as well, that the so-called "West Bank" will be the subject of contention among the nations, to the extent that they think they have the right to decide to whom it should go

[20:07] <BobWestbrook> WRONG

[20:07] <Bezalel3> Pretty good (pictures), probably from the news today when he left his compound.

[20:07] <BobWestbrook> yeah

[20:08] <Netia19> you and Allyn have studing my sword with such fever

[20:08] <BobWestbrook> terrific! :)

[20:08] <BobWestbrook> Hmmmm, so where is everybody tonight? :)

[20:08] <Bezalel3> I've been looking at Jer. 49 some more. The three areas that will be restored still interests me.

[20:09] <BobWestbrook> Yes? Ready to share any thoughts?

[20:09] <Bezalel3> Two are in the area of Jordan, and one over into Iraq. Thought maybe some of the allowance for Christian churches would be a redeeming factor, however, haven't noticed Saddam letting Christians freely worship.

[20:10] <Bezalel3> Jordan, however, does have some freedom of religion, don't they?

[20:10] <BobWestbrook> Today, Congressman Dick Armey, according to the Jerusalem Post, went beyond political correctness to inject some rare truth into the situation

[20:10] <BobWestbrook> Rep. Richard Armey, the Republican Congressional leader, said the Palestinians should build their national home within a neighboring Arab country.

[20:10] <BobWestbrook> Armey noted Arab nations have large tracts of unsettled territory where the Palestinians could build a nation.

[20:10] <BobWestbrook> In Armey's opinion, there is no reason for Israel to hand territory over to the Palestinians in exchange for peace.

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> Bez, it's questionable how much real freedom of religion could exist in any Islamic state

[20:11] <Bezalel3> True, but some do allow it.

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> And Jordan is an Islamic state

[20:11] <Bezalel3> Reluctantly....

[20:11] CJ-Seeker [~CJ-Seeker@jproxy14.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> To some degree, yes

[20:11] <Bezalel3> Hi Seeker.

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> Shalom All

[20:11] <BobWestbrook> Hello Allyn!

[20:11] <CJ-Seeker> Hi Bez

[20:12] <CJ-Seeker> Bob..how are you

[20:12] <CJ-Seeker> and Karen m

[20:12] <BobWestbrook> Pretty good, thanks! :)

[20:12] <Netia19> Hi my friend

[20:12] <CJ-Seeker> good..hows the business going?

[20:13] <BobWestbrook> it's slowly picking up, we've photographed three weddings, with good results, and have several more bookings for upcoming months

[20:13] <Bezalel3> That sounds encouraging.

[20:13] <CJ-Seeker> all Night shift work?

[20:14] <BobWestbrook> Mostly Saturdays

[20:14] <CJ-Seeker> So no more weekends for you ..:)

[20:14] <BobWestbrook> nope :)

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> All rightee, looks like this is all for now, so let's pray and get started :)

[20:15] <CJ-Seeker> I looked at your site the other night and it looks sterling

[20:15] <CJ-Seeker> ok

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> Thanks :)

[20:15] <Netia19> ok

[20:15] <BobWestbrook> Lord God, you are our Creator, and we thank you for putting us here for your purposes

[20:16] <CJ-Seeker> thank you Lord

[20:16] <BobWestbrook> Make us to be lights shining in a dark place, proclaiming your excellence!

[20:16] <CJ-Seeker> May we be a servant to all

[20:16] <Bezalel3> You are our Savior, Faith and Wisdom.

[20:16] <BobWestbrook> May your Spirit teach us tonight, and infuse us with strength and enthusiasm as we serve You!

[20:17] <Netia19> yes Lord

[20:17] <BobWestbrook> Glory to your Name, Our Holy Father, and Glory to the Son!

[20:17] <Bezalel3> We pray for the safety and peace of Jerusalem, as You have promised.

[20:17] <CJ-Seeker> \O?

[20:17] <BobWestbrook> May your Kingdom soon be established on Earth

[20:17] <BobWestbrook> Amen! :)

[20:18] <CJ-Seeker> yes

[20:18] <Bezalel3> Amen

[20:18] <Netia19> yes Father please

[20:18] <CJ-Seeker> amen

[20:18] <Netia19> Amen

[20:18] <CJ-Seeker> How about the free Psychic reading ad at the top?

[20:18] <BobWestbrook> OK, tonight, I'd like to examine a section of Jeremiah that I had intended to do awhile ago but we never got to it

[20:18] <BobWestbrook> ouch, Seeker :)

[20:19] <BobWestbrook> my advice - don't click LOL

[20:19] <CJ-Seeker> really!

[20:19] <BobWestbrook> That section is chapters 30-33

[20:19] <CJ-Seeker> ok Jeremiah

[20:19] <BobWestbrook> As we examine a book, I like to start by stepping back a bit and see how it fits into the whole

[20:20] <CJ-Seeker> absolutely

[20:20] <BobWestbrook> These chapters are somewhat different in tone than much of the book, which consists of a lot of denunciation by the prophet of the sins of the people at that time

[20:20] <BobWestbrook> and a description of the consequences for their rebellion

[20:20] <BobWestbrook> These chapters, however, are different in ton

[20:20] <BobWestbrook> tone

[20:21] <CJ-Seeker> maybe there is a ton of difference:)

[20:21] <BobWestbrook> They contain mostly a message of future hope, a message of consolation

[20:21] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:22] <BobWestbrook> Even in the midst of Jeremiah's scathing rebukes of the people, these chapters contain good news of God's future plans for Israel

[20:22] <BobWestbrook> which, of course, is very relevant to today, and to tomorrow

[20:22] <CJ-Seeker> yes

[20:22] <Netia19> yes it is

[20:22] <BobWestbrook> So, let's dive in :)

[20:22] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:1-2 NIV) This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: {2} "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you.

[20:22] <CJ-Seeker> 0//

[20:23] <BobWestbrook> First, we see what is an apt summary of the Bible itself - God's communication to mankind through His prophets

[20:24] <BobWestbrook> So that we, stupid mortals that we are, would not be hopeless groping in the dark without any clues as to the meaning and significance of our existence

[20:24] <CJ-Seeker> still with ya

[20:24] <CJ-Seeker> ouch

[20:24] <Bezalel3> Unless we ignore those words....

[20:24] <BobWestbrook> And most importantly, not only who we are, but who HE is

[20:24] <BobWestbrook> Right, Bez

[20:25] <CJ-Seeker> nothing without Him

[20:25] <BobWestbrook> Righto :)

[20:25] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:3 NIV) The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

[20:26] <CJ-Seeker> and a long wait it has been

[20:26] <Bezalel3> Significantly more land than they now possess....

[20:26] <BobWestbrook> Jeremiah was written, of course, at the time of the Babylonian exile - but the restoration that it speaks of is not the one accomplished by folks such as Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel, but the second restoration in this era

[20:26] <BobWestbrook> Right Bez, and Seeker :)

[20:27] <BobWestbrook> As we will see by the context of this chapter

[20:27] <Netia19> ?Bob

[20:27] <BobWestbrook> Yes?

[20:28] <BobWestbrook> Question? :)

[20:28] <CJ-Seeker> shell get there :)

[20:28] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:28] <Netia19> do you feel as if God is only speeking of the Jewish people

[20:29] <BobWestbrook> That's a very good question! :)

[20:29] <CJ-Seeker> yes Karen..good question

[20:29] <BobWestbrook> When looking at verses such as these, there are two ways to understand (1) the primary interpretation, and (2) the application to us, the reader

[20:30] <CJ-Seeker> is there an However?

[20:30] <BobWestbrook> The primary interpretation is speaking of real events that happened or will happen to Israel, but we can always extract spiritual interpretations that apply to us

[20:30] <BobWestbrook> The problem in the church, as I see it, as number 2 is almost always spoken of, but number 1 rarely

[20:30] <Bezalel3> The rest of the story..:-)

[20:31] <BobWestbrook> so you have a church that is woefully ill-informed about the meaning of God's plans for Israel

[20:31] <CJ-Seeker> and then there is the ole replacement theology

[20:31] <Bezalel3> I second that!

[20:31] <Netia19> anfd that isvery sad

[20:32] <BobWestbrook> Right, Seeker, which is bogus theology, false, evil, arrogant - shall I continue? :)

[20:32] <CJ-Seeker> the Church forgot the blessing that Israle has for us just by thier very existance

[20:32] <Netia19> yes

[20:32] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:33] <CJ-Seeker> I wish the Church would step forward and take on placement Theology..Grafting in

[20:33] <BobWestbrook> Ok, the next section is controversial in interpretation, at least in my mind it is, because i think it is one of the most badly misinterpreted prophecy sections in the Bible

[20:33] <Bezalel3> So we end up with postings, like the one today, in which christians want to force Jews to accept Jesus, right now.

[20:34] <CJ-Seeker> I missed that one BezV

[20:34] <BobWestbrook> No one can be forced to accept Jesus, certainly, and it's wrong to even attempt that

[20:34] <Bezalel3> They fail to show the patience of the Lord in their redemption.

[20:34] <Netia19> not me

[20:34] <CJ-Seeker> Bondage with charm :)

[20:34] <BobWestbrook> We instead are ambassadors of reconciliation

[20:35] <Bezalel3> Oh, yes, Bob...

[20:36] <BobWestbrook> Stan and I co-authored an article about this next section, that you might want to read at your leisure: http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html

[20:36] <BobWestbrook> OK, next verses:

[20:36] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:5-6 NIV) "This is what the LORD says: "'Cries of fear are heard-- terror, not peace. {6} Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale?

[20:36] <CJ-Seeker> when do u two have the time..?

[20:36] <BobWestbrook> Ahh, well, we find a moment here and there :)

[20:36] <CJ-Seeker> good for us:)

[20:37] <CJ-Seeker> ok..what do theses passages mean?

[20:37] <Netia19> yes

[20:37] <BobWestbrook> Ok, what are your impression on verses 5&6, initial reaction?

[20:37] <CJ-Seeker> I asked first

[20:37] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:37] <CJ-Seeker> hee hee

[20:38] <CJ-Seeker> distress

[20:38] <Bezalel3> Recognition by the world of Who is behind all of the current events?

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> Well, a bad scene, right? Terror, despair, fear

[20:38] <CJ-Seeker> from what though?

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> Good question

[20:38] <Netia19> ok boys be nice ha hA

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> The next verse answers it, but also introduces the controversy

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:38] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:7 NIV) How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

[20:38] <CJ-Seeker> :)

[20:39] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:7 NASB) 'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress, But he will be saved from it.

[20:39] <CJ-Seeker> future?

[20:39] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:7 NRSV) Alas! that day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be rescued from it.

[20:39] <CJ-Seeker> just axen

[20:39] Skeets4 [~Skeets4@jproxy12.talkcity.com] has joined #IsraelMyBeloved

[20:39] <Bezalel3> Hi Skeets.

[20:39] <BobWestbrook> The conventional interpretation of this is "the Time of Jacob's Trouble" is speaking of the what we Christians refer to as the tribulation period

[20:39] <CJ-Seeker> Skeets!!!

[20:39] <Skeets4> Hi

[20:39] <Skeets4> Sorry I'm late

[20:39] <BobWestbrook> But I strongly dispute this

[20:40] <BobWestbrook> For several reasons

[20:40] <CJ-Seeker> u should be :)

[20:40] <Bezalel3> We're in Jeremiah 30:5-6

[20:40] <BobWestbrook> Hi Skeets! :)

[20:40] <Skeets4> I know

[20:40] <Bezalel3> and 7

[20:40] <CJ-Seeker> ok..let's hear your take on it

[20:40] <Skeets4> Hi

[20:40] <BobWestbrook> Well, first of all, there is nothing in the context that ties it to the tribulation period

[20:40] <Netia19> HI Skeets

[20:41] <BobWestbrook> so to be as extremely dogmatic about it as most teachers are is entirely unwarranted

[20:41] <CJ-Seeker> such as what Bob..what would have to tie it in?

[20:41] <BobWestbrook> We'll get there :)

[20:41] <CJ-Seeker> okeeee

[20:42] <BobWestbrook> Second, in my opinion, to term the tribulation as "the time of Jacob's Trouble" is a gross misunderstanding of what God is doing in the world during that time

[20:42] <CJ-Seeker> well it certainly is the popular view

[20:42] <BobWestbrook> What He will be doing is pouring out His unbridled, pent-up wrath on a rebellious, God-hating world that has wholeheartedly and enthusiastically embraced the "man of sin"

[20:43] <BobWestbrook> What He will also be doing is continuing, and then culminating, the process of restoration for Israel

[20:43] <CJ-Seeker> some of these things that happen do not always require the whole world to be informed on them...God can and does rebuke in silence at times

[20:44] <BobWestbrook> This chapter does indeed speak of modern times, starting with the last century, and the events of 1948, and finally the reign of Messiah

[20:45] <CJ-Seeker> chapter 30?

[20:45] <BobWestbrook> yes

[20:45] <CJ-Seeker> ok

[20:45] <BobWestbrook> the phrase "in that day" describes a broad period of time during which God accomplishes the consolation of Israel and the rule of Jesus from Mount Zion

[20:46] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:8 NIV) "' In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them.

[20:46] <CJ-Seeker> verse 8

[20:46] <CJ-Seeker> ok

[20:46] <BobWestbrook> And part of that elongated process is what He does for Israel, giving them their own land so they will no longer carry the yoke of the nations in which they were dispersed

[20:47] <BobWestbrook> as we see in verse 8

[20:47] <CJ-Seeker> How can we be sure that "in that day" means as you said

[20:47] <CJ-Seeker> just wanting a clear understanding BOB:)

[20:47] <BobWestbrook> Verse 9 takes the long view of that process, stating in effect that the return to the land in that day is just the first step leading to the ultimate return and rule of the Son of David

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:9 NIV) Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> Verse 9 makes it clear, I think, what "in that day

[20:48] <CJ-Seeker> ok..following along

[20:48] <BobWestbrook> " refers to, right?

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> So, one thing that we learn from this, is that we are certainly in the end times, and we can perhaps say they began with the return of Jews to their land

[20:49] <Netia19> i hateto sayntjis but the kids have to go out

[20:49] <CJ-Seeker> yes..clearly Christ is raised up

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> OK, Netia :)

[20:49] <CJ-Seeker> Night Karen

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> Everybody with me? :)

[20:49] <CJ-Seeker> I think so

[20:49] <Skeets4> yes

[20:49] <Bezalel3> I'm right here, Bob.

[20:49] <BobWestbrook> Questions, comments before we continue?

[20:50] <CJ-Seeker> I am just not sure of the timing Bob

[20:50] <Netia19> Allyn will you have Bible study tomrrow nite

[20:50] <BobWestbrook> Timing's always the trickiest part to understand, huh

[20:50] <CJ-Seeker> Yes Karen

[20:50] <BobWestbrook> And the one about which we are less certain

[20:50] <CJ-Seeker> yes Bob

[20:50] <CJ-Seeker> see ya tomorrow Karen?

[20:50] <Skeets4> Yes, but there are signs

[20:51] <Skeets4> Is the Bible Study on Friday here also?

[20:51] <BobWestbrook> The next verse speaks to some of Israel's concerns today

[20:51] <BobWestbrook> Not here, but at Allyn's place :)

[20:51] <Netia19> God blesss all you and you beloved Isreal

[20:51] <CJ-Seeker> Since Christ had not yet been revealed at the time of this writing..I am not sure if it is the first coming or second that this refers to

[20:52] <Skeets4> oh

[20:52] <BobWestbrook> God bless you also!

[20:52] <Bezalel3> Night, Karen.

[20:52] <CJ-Seeker> CrossingJordan.net Skeets

[20:52] <Skeets4> ok

[20:52] <Netia19> nite

[20:52] <BobWestbrook> Well, I would say the second, because Jesus never reigned as King in Israel, though He was King

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[20:52] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:9 NIV) Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.

[20:53] <CJ-Seeker> But He came for that purpose but was rejected

[20:53] <CJ-Seeker> but I won't press it :)

[20:53] <Bezalel3> I thought He told the apostles that He hadn't come to rule the first time...

[20:53] <BobWestbrook> Right, but in this verse, not rejected, but accepted as King - "they will serve" - they are His subjects :)

[20:54] <CJ-Seeker> see what I mean :)

[20:54] <BobWestbrook> :)

[20:54] <CJ-Seeker> I is jus not sur

[20:54] <CJ-Seeker> please go on Bob

[20:55] <BobWestbrook> Well, in God's sovereign plan, He had to come as the atonement for sin, but He was still King :)

[20:56] <BobWestbrook> (John 18:33-34 NIV) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" {34} "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

[20:56] <BobWestbrook> (John 18:35 NIV) "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

[20:56] <BobWestbrook> (John 18:36-37 NIV) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." {37} "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

[20:56] <CJ-Seeker> leave it to me to cause trouble..din't mean to though..I hope u forgive me :)

[20:56] <BobWestbrook> No trouble at all - it would be boring if it were just a monologue by me :)

[20:57] <Bezalel3> Not really, Bob. But, Allyn does add the spice...:-)

[20:57] <BobWestbrook> Right, spice is good! :)

[20:57] <CJ-Seeker> Sour Doe

[20:58] <CJ-Seeker> How is it spelled?

[20:58] <BobWestbrook> OK, on to verse 10, which addresses some of Israel's current concerns:

[20:58] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:10 NIV) "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.

[20:58] <BobWestbrook> Fear, dismay, lack of peace and security - all now prevalent themes in Israel

[20:59] <BobWestbrook> all addressed by the Lord

[20:59] <CJ-Seeker> ok..now when does that happen..in light of all the conflict Israel is far from peace

[20:59] <Skeets4> i believe the anti-christ will being a false peace to Israel first?

[20:59] <BobWestbrook> Well, ultimately, it will happen when the Lord rules from His Holy Mountain

[20:59] <CJ-Seeker> Did you catch my post on Arafat seeing his shadow?

[21:00] <CJ-Seeker> absolutely Bob

[21:00] <Bezalel3> I did, allyn.

[21:00] <CJ-Seeker> :)

[21:01] <BobWestbrook> Skeets, yes, the antichrist will attempt to rule the world, with a great degree of success, and he may present himself as a peacemaker, though any verses that indicate that escape me at the moment

[21:02] <BobWestbrook> The assumption that he will establish a peace treaty with Israel is, however, something that I'd like to see more Scriptural evidence for

[21:02] <Skeets4> I don't know the verses either, but it will get a lot worse worldwide B4 the anti-christ. That is why the people will receive him...right?

[21:02] <CJ-Seeker> I believe it is supposed

[21:02] <CJ-Seeker> because of the 3.5 halves

[21:02] <BobWestbrook> Right, it is supposed, but unfortunately has taken on the strength of dogma to many

[21:02] <CJ-Seeker> I agree

[21:03] <CJ-Seeker> well I promised My daughter a game of Horse before it got dark..so better go do it :)

[21:03] <Skeets4> Everyone but the very elect will be deceived, so it could happen!!

[21:03] <BobWestbrook> They will receive him, Skeets, because he will be doing miracles, incredible feats, and will be leading the world towards its dream of divine status apart from God

[21:03] <CJ-Seeker> Thanks Bob..and see ya Bez and Skeets

[21:03] <Bezalel3> Night, Allyn.

[21:03] <BobWestbrook> OK, have fun with horse :)

[21:03] <BobWestbrook> See ya :)

[21:03] <Skeets4> By CJ

[21:04] <CJ-Seeker> byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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[21:04] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:10 NIV) "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.

[21:05] <BobWestbrook> Once again, we see a territorial promise here from the Lord to Israel

[21:06] <BobWestbrook> And a reaffirmation of His immutatble covenant with them

[21:06] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:11 NIV) I am with you and will save you,' declares the LORD. 'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'

[21:07] <Bezalel3> There was a change of reference between 10 and 11. It refers to the land of exile in 10, and then, 11 refers to all the nations...

[21:07] <BobWestbrook> God is still working on behalf of the Jewish people, and in a unique way - He will obliterate all the nations, but deal with Israel only for the ultimate aim of reconcilation

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[21:08] <BobWestbrook> Exile in the nations - we know how the Jews were abused for centuries in the lands where they lived

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[21:08] <BobWestbrook> Zechariah tells us that they went way way what God had in mind, as far as their horrid treatment of the Jews

[21:08] <Bezalel3> Hi Patricia, you gonna stick around this time???

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> even though He was the one who exiled them

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> way way beyond, that is

[21:09] <IMBPatricia> (Hi Bez...?)

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> Hi Patricia!

[21:09] <IMBPatricia> Hi Bob

[21:09] <BobWestbrook> Question? Comments? Rebuttals? :)

[21:10] <IMBPatricia> sorry to interrupt

[21:10] <Skeets4> But it looks like the horrid treatment is returning with gusto.

[21:10] <BobWestbrook> Right, Skeets

[21:10] <BobWestbrook> and that is what, to use the vernacular, is really gonna tick off God

[21:10] <Skeets4> is all of this part of this you are teaching?

[21:10] <BobWestbrook> ?

[21:10] <Skeets4> right

[21:11] <Skeets4> I mean, does it say that Israel will again be tormented?

[21:12] <Skeets4> After all they've gone through. Does Jeremiah indicate that [since I haven't read the passage]

[21:12] <BobWestbrook> Verse 11 says they will be disciplined, but only justly, only with their ultimate good in mind, with a view towards restoration

[21:13] <Skeets4> Oh, and that is what is happening now

[21:13] <BobWestbrook> I would say so, yes

[21:13] <Skeets4> I believe I've mentioned this B4, but my friend says she believes this is the time of the Jews coming forth.

[21:13] <Skeets4> Like the time of the Gentiles and now the Jews

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[21:15] <Gloria1947> hello everyone

[21:15] <Bezalel3> Hi, Gloria

[21:15] <BobWestbrook> it is, Skeets, in many ways - the "time of the Gentiles" is not yet complete, but we are certainly seeing much evidence that the Jewish people are turning back to the Lord, slowly

[21:15] <IMBPatricia> hi Gloria

[21:15] <Gloria1947> hi Bez

[21:17] <BobWestbrook> Though the Messiah was sent to the Jewish people, it was also God's intention that the good news would go to all the world!

[21:18] <IMBPatricia> Amen to that Bob...we are so thankful.

[21:19] <BobWestbrook> The next portion of Jeremiah 30, is a section from verses 12-17, speaking of Isreal's "incurable wound"

[21:19] <BobWestbrook> so let's read all of those then look at them one by one

[21:19] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:12-14 NIV) "This is what the LORD says: "'Your wound is incurable, your injury beyond healing. {13} There is no one to plead your cause, no remedy for your sore, no healing for you. {14} All your allies have forgotten you; they care nothing for you. I have struck you as an enemy would and punished you as would the cruel, because your guilt is so great and your sins so many.

[21:19] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:15 NIV) Why do you cry out over your wound, your pain that has no cure? Because of your great guilt and many sins I have done these things to you.

[21:19] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:16-17 NIV) "'But all who devour you will be devoured; all your enemies will go into exile. Those who plunder you will be plundered; all who make spoil of you I will despoil. {17} But I will restore you to health and heal your wounds,' declares the LORD, 'because you are called an outcast, Zion for whom no one cares.'

[21:20] <BobWestbrook> The first thing we need to understand about these verses is they are God taking a long-term view of the situation, summarizing Israel's plight and history

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> They have what appears to be an incurable wound

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> and it is a wound inflicted on them by the Lord Himself

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> and He gives the reason why as well

[21:21] <BobWestbrook> have struck you as an enemy would and punished you as would the cruel, because your guilt is so great and your sins so many.

[21:22] <BobWestbrook> Because of your great guilt and many sins I have done these things to you.

[21:22] <BobWestbrook> But that's not the end of the story :)

[21:22] <BobWestbrook> Because, it turns out, the seemingly incurable wound, is cured

[21:22] <Bezalel3> Unfortunately, there are a number of denominations that stop reading at that point.

[21:22] <BobWestbrook> Right, Bez

[21:23] <BobWestbrook> What happens, is God changes his attitude and disposition towards them

[21:23] <BobWestbrook> the time of wounding comes to an end, and the time of restoration begins

[21:23] <BobWestbrook> And at that time, He comes to their defense against all who would stand against them

[21:23] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:16 NIV) "'But all who devour you will be devoured; all your enemies will go into exile. Those who plunder you will be plundered; all who make spoil of you I will despoil.

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[21:24] <Bezalel3> And, we are certainly not seeing that at this time (restoration)

[21:24] <Rich_31> 7hello Bob and all forgive me for being so late

[21:24] <Bezalel3> Hi Rich

[21:24] <Rich_31> 7hi Bez

[21:24] <Gloria1947> HI rICH

[21:24] <Rich_31> 7hello Patricia

[21:24] <BobWestbrook> We are seeing the beginnings of it, Bez, in fact, I would assert that the beginnings of this change in attitude commenced around 1948

[21:24] <Rich_31> 7hi Gloria

[21:24] <Gloria1947> Rich

[21:24] <Rich_31> 7Skeets helo

[21:25] <BobWestbrook> Hi Rich! :)

[21:25] <Skeets4> hi Rich

[21:25] <Bezalel3> But, we still see the nations against Israel....

[21:25] <BobWestbrook> Yes, we do, and we will soon see the nations "bespoiled" who will try to spoil Israel

[21:25] <Bezalel3> So their destruction hasn't begun in earnest.

[21:25] <BobWestbrook> Right

[21:25] <IMBPatricia> Hi Rich

[21:26] <IMBPatricia> Hi Rich

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> The next verse is important, and very touching

[21:26] <IMBPatricia> Hi Rich

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:17 NIV) But I will restore you to health and heal your wounds,' declares the LORD, 'because you are called an outcast, Zion for whom no one cares.'

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> The incurable wound is healed

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> why?

[21:26] <Rich_31> 7just eating a bite here Patricia hello

[21:26] <IMBPatricia> HI

[21:26] <Skeets4> that is very touching....that really moves me

[21:26] <IMBPatricia> 6Hi

[21:26] <Gloria1947> Bob do you think America will fight aganist Israel

[21:26] <BobWestbrook> because He cares about the one for whom no one cares, who has become an outcast in the world

[21:27] <Bezalel3> 22 " 'So you will be my people,

[21:27] <Bezalel3> and I will be your God.' "

[21:27] <BobWestbrook> Amen, Bez

[21:27] <Rich_31> 7we are His

[21:27] <BobWestbrook> Yes, it is very touching, Skeets - we see a bit of the depth of God's emotion here

[21:28] <IMBPatricia> 6Gloria I just hope not

[21:28] <Bezalel3> I still don't understand the mainstream churches who claim the replacement theory....it's so obvious who is joining whom.

[21:28] <BobWestbrook> Gloria, eventually, all nations will turn against Israel, but in the current situation, it seems that the US could very well be used by God's purposes to help Israel win the decisive victory we know is impending

[21:28] <Rich_31> 7I know it Bez how can they think like that

[21:29] <Skeets4> Is the replacement theory the Christians being Israel?

[21:29] <Skeets4> I didn't word that very well.

[21:29] <Bezalel3> Mostly, Skeets, as I understand it.

[21:29] <BobWestbrook> Yes, Skeets, but its much more malicious than that - not only replacement, but also that Israel is under God's eternal curse

[21:29] <Skeets4> I've heard a ton of people tell me that we are Israel. I've never bought into that though

[21:30] <BobWestbrook> it's the theological basis for antisemitism

[21:30] <Skeets4> really?

[21:30] <Skeets4> wow

[21:30] <Gloria1947> that is my desire Bob sometimes our goverment upsets me I pray for God's wisdom for our leaders

[21:30] <Bezalel3> It must come from too many "white" pages in the Word.

[21:30] <Skeets4> I know people who love the Lord totally who have said that

[21:31] <BobWestbrook> the horrid antisemitism in the past did not happen in a historical vaccuum - this dreadful theology that declare that all Jews are cursed by God gave some the twisted rationale for their deeds of hatred

[21:31] <IMBPatricia> 6there was someone named Mark who came into the forum tpday and spouted off about "his understanding " against the Jews and against Israel

[21:31] <Skeets4> But these scriptures totally prove that Jesus was talking about Israel

[21:32] <Bezalel3> Saw that, Patricia...

[21:32] <Gloria1947> I have a hard time with people who belong to the Lord say things about Israel

[21:33] <BobWestbrook> On the one hand, we must be frank, as Jeremiah and the other prophets are, about the reasons for the things that have happened to Israel, but on the other hand, we know that God is ultimately a God of compassion and restoration

[21:33] <Skeets4> amen

[21:33] <Gloria1947> amen

[21:33] <Rich_31> 7how can someone that calls themselves a diciple of our Lord be anti semetic they are supposed to love everyone

[21:34] <BobWestbrook> Beats me, Rich

[21:34] <Skeets4> i don't know Rich. I can't figure that one out either.

[21:34] <IMBPatricia> 6many will come in His name Rich...but...

[21:34] <Bezalel3> Maybe it just makes it easy to fill the pews...

[21:34] <BobWestbrook> It's a counterfeit theological system cooked up in the Devil's kitchen

[21:35] <Rich_31> 7thats what I think too you all

[21:35] <Gloria1947> I agree with that Bob

[21:36] <Bezalel3> Satan works on our pride. Making us believe we are the chosen people strokes that pride.

[21:36] <IMBPatricia> 6yes, that is a key, Bez

[21:36] <Rich_31> 7the meek shall inherit the earth though huh

[21:36] <BobWestbrook> Right, Bez, and that's exactly the kind of pride that Paul explicitly warned the Gentile Christians about

[21:36] <Skeets4> the meek and the remnant

[21:37] <Rich_31> 7byep

[21:37] <IMBPatricia> 6right Bob

[21:37] <Rich_31> 7yep

[21:37] <BobWestbrook> in Romans 11

[21:37] <Rich_31> 7go ahead Bob

[21:37] <BobWestbrook> "Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

[21:37] <BobWestbrook> 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

[21:37] <BobWestbrook> "

[21:38] <Skeets4> right

[21:38] <Rich_31> 7thats it alright

[21:38] <IMBPatricia> 6that is a humbling fact

[21:38] <Skeets4> Bob, maybe don't be afraid but fear the Lord in that what He says, He means

[21:38] <Rich_31> 7salvation is of the Jewish folks

[21:38] <Bezalel3> We are the wild branch...

[21:38] <BobWestbrook> OK, after the words about the healing that will come from the Lord, the next verses elaborate on that

[21:39] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:18 NIV) "This is what the LORD says: "'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place.

[21:39] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:19 NIV) From them will come songs of thanksgiving and the sound of rejoicing. I will add to their numbers, and they will not be decreased; I will bring them honor, and they will not be disdained.

[21:39] <Rich_31> 7can't wait for that

[21:39] <Bezalel3> The palace being the Temple, Bob?

[21:39] <BobWestbrook> I would think so, yes

[21:40] <Bezalel3> Since, that will be the throne of the Lord...

[21:40] <Rich_31> 7the Lords Palace huh

[21:40] <BobWestbrook> right!

[21:40] <Rich_31> 7imagine being there

[21:40] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:20 NIV) Their children will be as in days of old, and their community will be established before me; I will punish all who oppress them.

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[21:41] <Bezalel3> Welcome, Charmer....:-)

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[21:41] <BobWestbrook> In contrast to the many years when Israel was oppressed, and their oppressors seemingly went unpunished

[21:41] <NYCharmer> hiya

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[21:41] <BobWestbrook> Welcome Charmer, and Gforce!

[21:41] <Skeets4> hello

[21:41] <Rich_31> 7hi charmer

[21:41] <Rich_31> 7hello Gforce

[21:42] <BobWestbrook> We are looking at the writings of the Jewish prophet Jeremiah, chapter 30

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[21:42] <BobWestbrook> The next verse, 21, is Messianic in tone

[21:42] <Rich_31> 7they took off quick huh

[21:42] <BobWestbrook> uh huh :)

[21:42] <BobWestbrook> Got scared :)

[21:42] <Rich_31> 7lol yep

[21:43] <BobWestbrook> We will look at this verse in some detail - it is fascinating

[21:43] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:21 NIV) Their leader will be one of their own; their ruler will arise from among them. I will bring him near and he will come close to me, for who is he who will devote himself to be close to me?' declares the LORD.

[21:43] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:21 NASB) 'And their leader shall be one of them, And their ruler shall come forth from their midst; And I will bring him near, and he shall approach Me; For who would dare to risk his life to approach Me?' declares the LORD.

[21:43] <BobWestbrook> This tells us a lot about the Messiah

[21:43] <Rich_31> 7k

[21:43] <BobWestbrook> He will be a Jew, of course, coming from their own people

[21:43] <Bezalel3> Come from their midst, but dares to approach HIm.

[21:44] <BobWestbrook> And He alone will be the one who can approach God

[21:44] <Rich_31> 7and live

[21:44] <BobWestbrook> And He alone will be the one who will exclusively devote His life to drawing close to God at all times, and obeying

[21:45] <BobWestbrook> This means, He will be sinless, holy

[21:45] <BobWestbrook> But not only that, He will not be only a mere man

[21:45] <BobWestbrook> for what mere man can approach God?

[21:45] <Bezalel3> That certainly describes our Saviour.

[21:45] <Rich_31> 7have to friends you all take care OK God Bless love ya's all

[21:45] <BobWestbrook> And could say that he is near to God?

[21:45] <Rich_31> 7go

[21:45] <BobWestbrook> See ya Rich! :)

[21:45] <Skeets4> bye Rich

[21:46] <Bezalel3> Night, Rich....God Bless.

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[21:46] <BobWestbrook> (John 1:18 NIV) No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

[21:47] <BobWestbrook> Only because He was "close to God" yet gave up His life as a sacrifice for all, can we be "close to God"

[21:48] <Gloria1947> isn't He Wonderful!!!!!!!!!

[21:48] <BobWestbrook> Yes Indeed!

[21:49] <Bezalel3> And He gave us this message 2500 years ago...plenty of notice....

[21:49] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:22 NIV) "'So you will be my people, and I will be your God.'"

[21:49] <Gloria1947> Amen

[21:50] <BobWestbrook> Look at those two verses together - it is on the basis of this man, who was one of them, who alone could approach God, that they will be His people. It is the new covenant that Jeremiah later elaborates on

[21:50] <BobWestbrook> the new covenant, made in blood, that God establishes with Israel

[21:51] <BobWestbrook> But next, comes a seemingly inexplicable, abrupt change

[21:51] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 30:23-24 NIV) See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a driving wind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. {24} The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand this.

[21:52] <BobWestbrook> This is the Day of the Lord, what we call the tribulation period

[21:52] <Bezalel3> After the time of Jacob's trouble....:

[21:53] <BobWestbrook> but it is swirling down on the heads of the wicked world, not on those who He calls "my people"

[21:53] <BobWestbrook> In other words, the tribulation period is not God directing His anger at the Jews, as many teach

[21:54] <BobWestbrook> Those two verses are repeated nearly verbatim in another place

[21:54] <BobWestbrook> (Jeremiah 23:19-20 NIV) See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. {20} The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand it clearly.

[21:54] <BobWestbrook> I have a theory of mine, that when we see the same words in different places in the Bible, that they are put there for special emphasis

[21:55] <BobWestbrook> that we are to pay special attention to them

[21:55] <BobWestbrook> And, the storm of the Lord, as described here, is further elaborated on in the book of Revelation, among other places

[21:56] <BobWestbrook> And I have a challenge for all of you reading this who say the the tribulation period is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" - if this is so, then why is there NOWHERE in the book of Revelation that reiterates this?

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[21:57] <Skeets4> God bless all. I need to leave. This has been very good.

[21:57] <Bezalel3> Heheheh.....

[21:57] <BobWestbrook> If the book of Revelation is the final description of God's wrath on the world, why then does it not mention Israel as one object of that wrath?

[21:57] <Bezalel3> Night, Skeets...God bless you too.

[21:57] <Skeets4> that is a great queston

[21:57] <BobWestbrook> Night, Skeets :)

[21:57] <Skeets4> night

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[21:58] <Gloria1947> Night Skeets

[21:58] <BobWestbrook> On the contrary, Revelation 12 tells us that Israel alone is singled out for special protection during that time

[21:58] <Bezalel3> The only thing promised, in Revelation, for Israel is salvation..

[21:59] <BobWestbrook> a protection that even the Christians will not have, as many many will be martyred by the Beast

[21:59] <Bezalel3> Yes, by the Beast, but not the Wrath of God....correct, Bob?

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[21:59] <Bezalel3> Hi Marion.

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[22:00] <IMBPatricia> sorry folks I seem to be the center of attack in the spirit...my firewall is stopping it for now..but I must leave and then come back...BRB

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[22:00] <BobWestbrook> I should add another note - the marytrdom of the Christians, will apparently happen before the wrath of God is poured out - in fact, the wrath of God is partially in response to what has happened to the Christians by the followers of the Beast

[22:00] <BobWestbrook> Hi Marion! :)

[22:01] <Bezalel3> Are you sticking with us this time, Marion?

[22:01] <BobWestbrook> Right Bez, to your earlier question

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[22:02] <Bezalel3> So, when the Lord promises we will not be subjected to His wrath, it doesn't say anything about being attacked by Satan...?

[22:02] <BobWestbrook> And that is the end of chapter 30, so that's a good place to stop

[22:02] <BobWestbrook> Right, bez

[22:03] <BobWestbrook> In fact, both Daniel and Revelation tell us that the Beast will have a great deal of success in his war against the saints

[22:03] <BobWestbrook> killing many

[22:03] <BobWestbrook> Next week, we will tackle Jeremiah chapter 31 :)

[22:04] <Bezalel3> Whew, gonna be a marathon, huh, Bob?

[22:04] <MarvBMar> Hi Bez I finally got in

[22:04] <IMBPatricia> sorry I missed so much here tonight Bob

[22:04] <IMBPatricia> it has been a real battle

[22:04] <Bezalel3> We're glad you made it, Marion...:-)

[22:04] <BobWestbrook> Well, we're glad you made some of it, and the log will be posted :)

[22:04] <MarvBMar> sorry I am so late . We just got back home. wh had a service for woprld day of prayer

[22:05] <MarvBMar> World day of Prayer

[22:06] <Bezalel3> Alan Keyes is going off on the PA....he's is certainly animated about it.

[22:06] <MarvBMar> I guess I missed the whole study

[22:06] <BobWestbrook> Cool, Bez :)

[22:06] <BobWestbrook> See you all next time :)

[22:06] <MarvBMar> about what

[22:06] <MarvBMar> good night Bob

[22:06] <MarvBMar> shalom

[22:06] <BobWestbrook> Night, Friends :)

[22:07] <Gloria1947> What I have been here has been great I alway go with learning a lot I thank God for our chats and fellowship good night all and God Bless

[22:07] <Bezalel3> Night, Bob. God Bless.....

[22:07] <Bezalel3> Night, Goria.

[22:07] <BobWestbrook> Yes, thank you Lord for teaching us! :)

[22:07] <MarvBMar> nite Gloria

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[22:07] <IMBPatricia> Goodnight all...have a blessed week ahead. Much love,

*** Log file closed: 5/2/02 10:07:52 PM