*** Log file opened: 9/21/00 7:57:38 PM

[19:57] <Nancy-VHL> 10There's Bob

[19:58] <VCI-Bob> Here I am!

[19:58] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi Bob!

[19:58] <Nancy-VHL> 10Hi Bob

[19:58] <VCI-Bob> Hello friends! :)

[19:58] <Kathy-VHL> yes he is but I dont mena ma man that way I mean it like he is great

[19:58] <Nancy-VHL> 10:)

[19:58] <Kathy-VHL> Hi Bob

[19:58] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Survived the Parousia conference, I see.

[19:58] <VCI-Bob> Hi Kathy, Nancy, Bez!

[19:58] <Kathy-VHL> cant wait to hear about it Bob

[19:58] <VCI-Bob> Sure did, it was very good!

[19:58] <VCI-Bob> It was held at a place called "Zion's Hope" in Orlando

[19:59] <VCI-Bob> a ministry founded by Marv Rosenthal

[19:59] <Kathy-VHL> I have been checking your www site everyday to see if you had posted anything lol

[19:59] <VCI-Bob> and, among other things, they had a very cool scale model of Jerusalem in AD 66, maybe 30 feet by 20 feet

[19:59] <Nancy-VHL> 10wow

[19:59] <VCI-Bob> Did you see, Kathy, that I posted the old chat logs there as you requested?

[20:00] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I've read Rosenthal's Pre-Wrath rapture book, a truly profound discussion of rapture.

[20:00] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Nancy, the model was really detailed

[20:00] <Kathy-VHL> no where are they

[20:00] <Nancy-VHL> 10would love to have seen it

[20:00] <Kathy-VHL> all I saw new was the audio things

[20:00] <VCI-Bob> Rosenthal kicked off the conference with a talk reciting the history of Jerusalem - was very good

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> look to the left, and you'll see a new button saying "VHL Chat Logs"

[20:01] <Kathy-VHL> did you see that Hall Lindsay is on wnd daily

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> The two main participants in the conference were.....

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> "The Sign Ministries" and "Voices of the Martrys"

[20:02] <VCI-Bob> and the theme was "Persecution, Past, Present, and Future"

[20:02] <Bezalel-VHL> 2The Sign Ministries is Robert Van Kampen, correct?

[20:02] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Bez

[20:02] <VCI-Bob> The speakers were Charles Cooper and Bill Lee-Warner

[20:03] <VCI-Bob> And.... I got to meet Hope (Elana) and her husband :) We had lunch

[20:03] <VCI-Bob> they are great people

[20:03] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Saw your picture with Hope and hubby on the home page.

[20:03] <VCI-Bob> you may have seen the picture on VHL page - that was us :) What you clicked on to get here

[20:03] <VCI-Bob> yeah :)

[20:03] <Kathy-VHL> what scripture are we looking at toight Bob I got my new Quick Verse today

[20:03] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah saw that

[20:04] <VCI-Bob> You did Kathy? How do you like it?

[20:04] <Kathy-VHL> I wnet through so fast I didnt see anything but I will go back and look

[20:04] <Kathy-VHL> I have not had it long enough to know yet but it is impressive so far

[20:04] <Kathy-VHL> got a good deal too only 149.00

[20:04] <Kathy-VHL> and I got the Greek with it

[20:04] <VCI-Bob> Great!

[20:05] <Kathy-VHL> 76 reference books Bob

[20:05] <VCI-Bob> OK, well, first, I'd like to look at Daniel's prayer in Daniel 9

[20:05] <VCI-Bob> wow

[20:05] <VCI-Bob> that'll keep you busy :)

[20:05] <VCI-Bob> Remember that Daniel, while in exile in Babylon as an old man...

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> recalled the prophecy of Jeremiah about the 70 years

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> and knew the time was almost up

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom-- (Daniel 9:1 NIV)

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. (Daniel 9:2 NIV)

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes. (Daniel 9:3 NIV)

[20:07] <VCI-Bob> As a result of his incredible prayer, which follows in the rest of the chapter, Daniel is given the famous "Seventy Weeks" prophecy that is the backbone of so much of what we understand

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> I would like to look at v 16 and following of that prayer....

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> because it is very applicable today

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> ok?

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> O Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our fathers have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us. (Daniel 9:16 NIV)

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> "Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. (Daniel 9:17 NIV)

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. (Daniel 9:18 NIV)

[20:08] <Kathy-VHL> great

[20:09] <VCI-Bob> Today, as you know, much of the discussion in the so-called "peace-process" is about the Temple Mount

[20:09] <VCI-Bob> and.... though we are not directly involved....

[20:09] Clint-VHL [~Clint-VHL@proxy16.talkcity.com] has joined #VHL-Prophecy

[20:09] <VCI-Bob> We ARE.... because we can act, as Daniel did

[20:10] <VCI-Bob> to petition the Lord "for His Holy Hill"

[20:10] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Clint!

[20:10] <Kathy-VHL> Yes

[20:10] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi Clint

[20:10] <Clint-VHL> Shalom Guys.

[20:10] <Nancy-VHL> 10Hi Cling

[20:10] <VCI-Bob> Clint, we are looking at Daniel 9:16-18

[20:10] <Kathy-VHL> and that prayer Bob fits for now perfectly

[20:10] <Clint-VHL> Thanks

[20:10] <VCI-Bob> Yes, and tonight, we are not only going to DISCUSS prophecy....

[20:11] <VCI-Bob> we are going to be active participants by praying these things

[20:11] <VCI-Bob> O Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our fathers have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us. (Daniel 9:16 NIV)

[20:12] <VCI-Bob> "Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. (Daniel 9:17 NIV)

[20:12] <VCI-Bob> Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. (Daniel 9:18 NIV)

[20:12] <VCI-Bob> Lord God, we call out to you as Daniel did

[20:13] <VCI-Bob> on behalf of Jerusalem

[20:13] <VCI-Bob> We ask you Lord, to take note of the arrogant things being said by your opponents

[20:13] <Bezalel-VHL> 2The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. Psalms 111:10

[20:14] <VCI-Bob> and to bring yourself glory by thwarting their plans

[20:14] <Nancy-VHL> 10please turn away your anger and wrath from Jerusalem

[20:14] <VCI-Bob> O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name." (Daniel 9:19 NIV)

[20:14] <VCI-Bob> Our Father, we look forward to the day when Jesus reigns from Jerusalem, as you have promised

[20:15] <VCI-Bob> We know that many things must happen before that.......

[20:15] <VCI-Bob> and we ask you to hasten the day

[20:15] <VCI-Bob> We thank you for your goodness to us, Jesus

[20:16] <VCI-Bob> And as Bez quoted, to YOU alone belongs eternal praise

[20:16] <Kathy-VHL> we thank you for you patience with us

[20:17] <Nancy-VHL> 10we thank you for your love for us

[20:17] <Nancy-VHL> 10and for our love for each other

[20:17] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Praise our great and wonderful Lord. Grant us understanding and faith in His way and not man.

[20:17] <Nancy-VHL> 10for all good things come from only you Lord

[20:17] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Lord, we all play a part in your divine plan, though we are so unworthy, you have selected us to be your treasured possession

[20:17] <Kathy-VHL> give us understanding

[20:17] <Clint-VHL> May YOUR will be done above all things, oh LORD.

[20:18] <Kathy-VHL> conform us to your will Father

[20:19] <VCI-Bob> Amen!

[20:19] <Nancy-VHL> 10amen

[20:19] <Clint-VHL> Amen.

[20:19] <Kathy-VHL> In Christ name Amen

[20:19] <Bezalel-VHL> 2"Here I will make a horn [3] grow for David and set up a lamp for my anointed one.I will clothe his enemies with shame, but the crown on his head will be resplendent Psalm 132:17-18

[20:20] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Amen

[20:20] <VCI-Bob> Oh, what a great verse, Bez! Can't ya just SEE it!!!

[20:20] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Oh, yeah, both in the spiritual and the natural....it's going to be awesome.

[20:20] <Kathy-VHL> what does resplendent mean

[20:21] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Glorified, beautiful

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> re·splen·dent (ri-splen'dent)

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> Adjective

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> Shining with splendor.

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> Etymology: Latin resplendere, to shine brightly.

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> re·splen'dence

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> Noun

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> re·splen'dent·ly

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> Adverb

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> :)

[20:21] <Kathy-VHL> :-)

[20:21] <Clint-VHL> Whoa Bob!:-)

[20:22] <Kathy-VHL> thats what I thought but thank you

[20:22] <Clint-VHL> Easy boy, easy.:-)

[20:22] <VCI-Bob> I'm looking at a couple other translations, and they say Jesus crown will "shine, gleam"

[20:22] <VCI-Bob> :) Clint

[20:22] <Kathy-VHL> I knew it was a from the root word splendin

[20:23] <VCI-Bob> and the Hebrew word is:

[20:23] <VCI-Bob> 6692. tsuwts, tsoots; a prim. root; to twinkle, i.e. glance; by anal. to blossom (fig. flourish):--bloom, blossom, flourish, shew self.

[20:24] <Kathy-VHL> interesting that those hebrew discriptives are discriptive of Israel also

[20:24] <VCI-Bob> I doubt if there are words, Hebrew or English, to adequately describe how Jesus "shine" will look :)

[20:24] <Kathy-VHL> whenHe returns that is

[20:24] <VCI-Bob> as He rules from Mount Zion

[20:24] <VCI-Bob> yes, Kathy

[20:24] <Nancy-VHL> 10We shall see Him coming in Glory!

[20:24] <Clint-VHL> We are presently preparing for a tropical storm here in N.W. Florida, and the whole middle east, with Jerusalem as it's center, is preparing for the final storm. Something to think about, huh?

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Clint, I'm in Tampa, and we had the fringes of that hurricane

[20:25] <Kathy-VHL> sure is

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> and as the storm darkened the area, it reminded me of...

[20:25] <Clint-VHL> We didn't get a drop.

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> the many Scriptures that describe the Day of the Lord as a time of "darkness"

[20:26] <Clint-VHL> I also thought of it.

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand--

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness.

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> from Joel 2

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> "The great day of the LORD is near-- near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there. (Zephaniah 1:14 NIV)

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness, (Zephaniah 1:15 NIV)

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers. (Zephaniah 1:16 NIV)

[20:27] <Kathy-VHL> But we are told to fear not

[20:27] <VCI-Bob> That's right, Kathy :)

[20:28] <VCI-Bob> No fear for us - what do we have to be afraid of?

[20:28] <VCI-Bob> The Lord has made us indestructible, because of His resurrection!

[20:28] <Nancy-VHL> 10amen

[20:28] <Clint-VHL> Even in battle a soldier must fight the natural tendency to "fear".

[20:28] <Kathy-VHL> thats right

[20:28] <Clint-VHL> Amen Bob.

[20:28] <VCI-Bob> True, Clint, but in this case, we'll be on the winning side :)

[20:29] <Clint-VHL> Ain't it so>

[20:29] <VCI-Bob> I guess, that's why, He tells, us over and over....

[20:29] <Nancy-VHL> 10:)

[20:29] <VCI-Bob> do not fear

[20:29] <Kathy-VHL> I think we probably will fear but He tells us that we dont have to

[20:29] <Clint-VHL> Sorry . Got excited.

[20:30] <VCI-Bob> :)

[20:30] <Clint-VHL> brb.

[20:30] <Nancy-VHL> 10brb

[20:30] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Bob, the conference seems to have energized you:-)

[20:30] <Kathy-VHL> I dont think we could help but fear when we see what happens

[20:31] <VCI-Bob> Yes, and here are some verses in Isaiah...

[20:31] <Bezalel-VHL> 2We'll need to keep our focus on Jesus, and reach for the narrow path.

[20:31] <VCI-Bob> that I think were given to us SPECIFICALLY for those future days:

[20:31] <Clint-VHL> I'm back.:->

[20:31] <VCI-Bob> Strengthen the feeble hands, steady the knees that give way; (Isaiah 35:3 NIV)

[20:31] <VCI-Bob> say to those with fearful hearts, "Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you." (Isaiah 35:4 NIV)

[20:32] <VCI-Bob> As we see the day approaching...

[20:32] <Kathy-VHL> now Bob is this before the rapture

[20:32] <VCI-Bob> and fearful events happen...

[20:32] <VCI-Bob> we will encourage each other with those words

[20:32] <Kathy-VHL> the day of theLord?

[20:33] <VCI-Bob> The Day of the Lord, in general, speaks of the time when God pours out wrath and judgment on the earth

[20:33] <Kathy-VHL> ok I was not sure if it was that or the actual day

[20:33] <VCI-Bob> and according to pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath, we won't be here

[20:33] <VCI-Bob> the post-trib view says we will

[20:34] <VCI-Bob> the "Day of the Lord" is not a 24 hour day, but a period

[20:34] <Kathy-VHL> ok thats what I was thinking

[20:34] <Kathy-VHL> then that is what people who are left here will be saying

[20:35] <Bezalel-VHL> 2What I find amazing is that, even with all the judgements and wrath, there will still be those who deny God.

[20:35] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Bez, the darkness of the human heart is an amazing thing

[20:35] <Nancy-VHL> 10That's because Satan is still here

[20:35] <VCI-Bob> think of the people who SAW JESUS and still rejected him

[20:35] <Clint-VHL> Bob, I'm beginning to believe that is the best approach to the rapture. It is going to happen but only the Father knows when.

[20:36] <VCI-Bob> those who saw Him raise Lazarus and then went right out and planned how they could kill Him

[20:36] <Nancy-VHL> 10amazing

[20:36] <Bezalel-VHL> 2We need to work very hard at getting the Word out, and moving the Church to defend Israel.

[20:37] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Clint - none of us has the final word or a definitive understanding of it all :)

[20:37] <Clint-VHL> Question: How can the church defend Israel when Israel is becoming more and more secular each day, it seems?

[20:37] <VCI-Bob> I guess it depends on what you mean to "defend"

[20:37] <VCI-Bob> we can defend them on the basis of God

[20:38] <Kathy-VHL> We need to always support her right to exist

[20:38] <VCI-Bob> God's immutable promises to Israel, right?

[20:38] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Prayer and fasting. Speaking out.

[20:38] <VCI-Bob> yes, certainly

[20:38] <Clint-VHL> My desire is to stand with Israel, however, she is going the same direction that America is going.

[20:39] <VCI-Bob> We don't have to defend everything that happens there, as in supporting it, because much of it is not good...

[20:39] <Bezalel-VHL> 2That's been going on for thousands of years, Cllint, and God hasn't forgotten her.

[20:39] <Clint-VHL> And I'm finding it increasingly hard to stand with my own country.

[20:40] <VCI-Bob> but... God is working, certainly, in Israel, to accomplish what HE has said

[20:40] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Amen, Bob!

[20:40] <Nancy-VHL> 10God will defend Israel

[20:40] <VCI-Bob> yes, indeed, Nancy

[20:40] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I can only laugh at Clinton and Assoc. to settle the "Middle East" problem.

[20:41] <Kathy-VHL> That is what is so great about it is that He is going to do it and everybody will know it was Him

[20:41] <Bezalel-VHL> 2attempts to settle

[20:41] <Clint-VHL> Yes Bob, that's a good point, as usual,:-). He is workjing all of the details out to His liking.

[20:41] <VCI-Bob> "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. (Ezekiel 36:22 NIV)

[20:41] <VCI-Bob> I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. (Ezekiel 36:23 NIV)

[20:41] <Clint-VHL> Ain't it so Bez:-)

[20:42] <Nancy-VHL> 10did anyone read Hal Lindsey's article The Middle East peace paradox?

[20:42] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Stan and I were talking about that earlier today....

[20:42] <Bezalel-VHL> 2You constantly amaze me, Bob. Always have the right verse.

[20:42] <Kathy-VHL> Yes nance that was good

[20:42] <Clint-VHL> I haven't.

[20:42] <VCI-Bob> just how far things will go (as far as ceding land) before God intervenes

[20:42] <Kathy-VHL> It was very infroming

[20:42] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah

[20:42] <VCI-Bob> Bez, it's the Lord :) I ask Him to lead the way here :)

[20:43] <Bezalel-VHL> 2It sure is effective!

[20:43] <VCI-Bob> No, Nancy, I didn't...

[20:43] <VCI-Bob> what was the premise of the article?

[20:44] <Nancy-VHL> 10That there will never be any peace

[20:44] <Nancy-VHL> 10both Israel and the PA will never give an inch

[20:44] <Kathy-VHL> he told why the temple mount was important to both sides

[20:44] <Nancy-VHL> 10on Jersulem

[20:44] <Kathy-VHL> and explained that it would set the way for the antichrist

[20:44] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah

[20:44] <Clint-VHL> I bet Hal read that some where.:-)

[20:45] <Nancy-VHL> 10It was on WorldNetDaily.com

[20:45] <VCI-Bob> yes, and you know what - I think everyone but the Israelis understand that, that peace will not come

[20:45] <Nancy-VHL> 10Bet he did too clint

[20:45] <VCI-Bob> Israel vainly hopes their concessions will make it happend

[20:45] <VCI-Bob> happen

[20:45] <Nancy-VHL> 10He also gave some past history

[20:45] <Kathy-VHL> I think the arabs think there will be peace

[20:45] <Nancy-VHL> 10Its too bad that Barak hasn't read the BOOK

[20:45] <Kathy-VHL> ifthey get the land lol

[20:46] <Clint-VHL> You know guys, some time I almost feel sorry for Arafat. Well almost.

[20:46] <Clint-VHL> Amen Nancy.

[20:46] <Nancy-VHL> 10He is lost and headed for a devils hell

[20:46] <Nancy-VHL> 10unless someone

[20:46] <Nancy-VHL> 10reaches him

[20:47] <Kathy-VHL> too much pride in his way now

[20:47] <Nancy-VHL> 10I wouldn't wish that on anyone, would you?

[20:47] <Nancy-VHL> 10You know arafat isn't getting any younger

[20:47] <Nancy-VHL> 10wonder what would happen if he were not there

[20:47] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I don't think Bill Clinton will fare any better than Arafat.

[20:48] <Nancy-VHL> 10may get worse

[20:48] <VCI-Bob> no, Nancy, but he plays a part, as we all do, in bringing glory to God - some by their rebellion and stubborness

[20:48] <Clint-VHL> I read what is going on with the, so called, peace talks, and it's like reading yesterdy's news because they are just telling us Christians something that our Lord has already told us.

[20:48] <Kathy-VHL> who is in line after him

[20:48] <Nancy-VHL> 10right Clint

[20:48] <Kathy-VHL> right Clint

[20:48] <VCI-Bob> Arafat's #2 is a guy named "Abu Mazen"

[20:49] <Bezalel-VHL> 2The one who is working with Beilen?

[20:49] <VCI-Bob> yeah, Bez, the same

[20:49] <Clint-VHL> Is that terrorist #2 Bob?

[20:49] <VCI-Bob> uh huh Clint

[20:49] <VCI-Bob> he's a "moderate" terrorist LOL

[20:50] <Kathy-VHL> yea moderate lol

[20:50] <Nancy-VHL> 10that is an oxymoran Bob

[20:50] <Nancy-VHL> 10spelling?

[20:50] <Nancy-VHL> 10lol

[20:50] Delta-VHL [~Delta-VHL@proxy5.talkcity.com] has joined #VHL-Prophecy

[20:50] <VCI-Bob> he throws the bombs more softly than the others :)

[20:50] <Clint-VHL> They think they can change the outward appearance and somehow that is supposed to make a difference. A terrorist is a terrorist unless his heart is changed.

[20:51] <VCI-Bob> Shalom, Delta! :)

[20:51] <Delta-VHL> Shalom Bob!

[20:51] <Clint-VHL> Good one Bob.:-)

[20:51] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi Delta!

[20:51] <Nancy-VHL> 10If it walks like a duck

[20:51] <Delta-VHL> Hey Bez!

[20:51] <Nancy-VHL> 10Hi Delta

[20:51] <Delta-VHL> LOL Nancy

[20:51] <VCI-Bob> Right, Clint - I read an interview of him today, and it sounded anything but "moderate"

[20:51] <Delta-VHL> Hi Clint, Nancy

[20:51] <Clint-VHL> God bless Delta. And I'm sure He does.

[20:51] <Nancy-VHL> 10:)

[20:52] <Clint-VHL> My immpression exactly.

[20:52] <Delta-VHL> Who, Bob?

[20:52] <VCI-Bob> abu mazen

[20:52] <Delta-VHL> Nice guy.

[20:52] <Delta-VHL> NOT

[20:52] <Clint-VHL> What's his other name Bob?

[20:52] <VCI-Bob> ummmm

[20:52] <Kathy-VHL> Hi Delta

[20:52] <Clint-VHL> I can't remember.

[20:53] <VCI-Bob> I can't remember

[20:53] <Clint-VHL> I mean alias.

[20:53] <Delta-VHL> :-) i dunno either

[20:53] <VCI-Bob> I was looking for the interview to pass it on...

[20:53] <VCI-Bob> hold on, let me find it

[20:53] <Delta-VHL> (Saw Dick Cheney's motorpool today, does that count?)

[20:53] <Nancy-VHL> 10lol Delts

[20:53] <Clint-VHL> You get a star

[20:54] <Clint-VHL> Delta.

[20:54] <Nancy-VHL> 10I don't think that counts

[20:54] <Delta-VHL> waiting on Bob

[20:54] <Delta-VHL> aww thanks!

[20:54] <VCI-Bob> The problem is, I have toooo many links on my "favorites" list :)

[20:54] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Did you see where Bush said he would continue to spend Sundays with his family and in Church. Doesn't matter what the GOP says.

[20:54] <Delta-VHL> Well, I tried?

[20:54] <Delta-VHL> :->

[20:55] <Delta-VHL> :->

[20:55] <Delta-VHL> Awww, my smiles aren't showing. sorry

[20:55] <Clint-VHL> Speaking of celebs. Jim Bakker is starting a ministry about 9 miles from my home out in the woods.

[20:55] <Kathy-VHL> oh my

[20:55] <Nancy-VHL> 10I thought He came out of the woods

[20:55] <Nancy-VHL> 10lol

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[20:55] <Clint-VHL> Maybe:-)

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[20:55] <Nancy-VHL> 10sorry, I will serious up

[20:55] <VCI-Bob> Ok, almost found it

[20:55] <Delta-VHL> Uh ohrael?

[20:55] <Delta-VHL> UHHHHHHHHHH

[20:55] <Clint-VHL> I wonder why he left southern Cal.

[20:56] <Kathy-VHL> huray for Bush

[20:56] <Delta-VHL> Ya'lll I just got kicked out and back in

[20:56] <Delta-VHL> What did I miss?

[20:56] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Not much...

[20:56] <Nancy-VHL> 10nothing, still waiting for Bob

[20:56] <Clint-VHL> Welcome back Delta.

[20:56] <VCI-Bob> Here is the link:

[20:56] <VCI-Bob> http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/julaug00/abumazen.html

[20:56] <Delta-VHL> cool, look later

[20:56] <Clint-VHL> Me too.

[20:56] <Nancy-VHL> 10me three

[20:56] <VCI-Bob> his other name is Mahmoud 'Abbas

[20:57] <Delta-VHL> A gymnast is performing to Hava Nagila on TV

[20:57] <Clint-VHL> There you go. I knew he had an alias.

[20:57] <VCI-Bob> Stan and I were talking today....

[20:58] <VCI-Bob> and we are going to both memorize Psalm 74 and recite it when I'm there next month, as we walk around the Temple area

[20:58] <Delta-VHL> awesome!

[20:58] <VCI-Bob> or I should say, pray it

[20:58] <Nancy-VHL> 10amen!!!

[20:58] <Clint-VHL> Awesome Bob.

[20:58] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Watch out, Bob, Stan told us Monday about his Temple Mount Prayers.

[20:59] <Bezalel-VHL> 2And midnight visits from the Israeli security police.

[20:59] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah scary

[20:59] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah

[20:59] <VCI-Bob> Yeah, Bez, maybe we'll get that lucky again! :)

[20:59] <Clint-VHL> Tell me Bez I wasn't here Monday.

[20:59] <Nancy-VHL> 10they came a pick Stan up

[20:59] <Delta-VHL> I spoke with a man in England today who converted from Islam who was almost killed twice.....and we trust these guys with peace?

[21:00] <VCI-Bob> hey, you think we are going to BEHAVE when we are there? :)

[21:00] <Nancy-VHL> 10nope

[21:00] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Stan got "escorted" off the Mount for praying, and Israeli security took his name (in 1994 or so). Just recently Israeli security showed up just before Christmas and held him overnight.

[21:00] <Clint-VHL> No Delta the administration trusts them with "peace".

[21:01] <VCI-Bob> I told Stan that I wanted him to take me up the Lebanon border so they could throw rocks on us too! :)

[21:01] <Clint-VHL> You guys are kidding aren't you.

[21:01] <Clint-VHL> ?

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[21:01] <Clint-VHL> About being escorted off.

[21:01] <VCI-Bob> No, Clint, the Arabs do not let Christians or Jews pray on the Temple Mount

[21:01] <Clint-VHL> or praying?

[21:02] <VCI-Bob> or anything that resembles praying

[21:02] <Nancy-VHL> 10Stan is our new Hero

[21:02] <Clint-VHL> Man I got to get out more.

[21:02] <VCI-Bob> so much for all of their rhetoric about "respecting the rights of the holy sites"

[21:02] <Clint-VHL> I didn't realize that I guess.

[21:02] <Kathy-VHL> Well I can teach yall pig latin they wont know you are praying then

[21:02] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Wow, Bob, just read Psalm 74. That should really calm down the Palestinians.

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[21:03] <Clint-VHL> I thought Israel had sovereignty.

[21:03] <VCI-Bob> poor Delta keeps getting tossed

[21:03] <Delta-VHL> yeah, it's weird

[21:03] <Nancy-VHL> 10Wonder why they are picking on Delta?

[21:03] <Delta-VHL> I'm signing out and back in, ok? BRB

[21:03] <Nancy-VHL> 10It is usually me

[21:03] <Kathy-VHL> poor Delta

[21:03] <VCI-Bob> not really Clint - in 1967, after they took control of East Jerusalem...

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[21:03] <Clint-VHL> Psalm 74 in pig latin. Probably a first.:-)

[21:04] <Kathy-VHL> that will work

[21:04] <VCI-Bob> Moshe Dayan decided that the Arabs should have effective control of the Temple Mount

[21:04] <Nancy-VHL> 10:->

[21:04] <VCI-Bob> a very very bad decision

[21:04] <Clint-VHL> Yeah.

[21:04] <Nancy-VHL> 10:-O

[21:04] <Kathy-VHL> but that causes Israel to at least have a cause

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> Psalm 74 is powerful....

[21:05] <Kathy-VHL> to look to

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> let's take a look at selected verses

[21:05] <Clint-VHL> Bob why would any Israeli make a dicision like that?

[21:05] <Clint-VHL> Including Dayan.

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> Well, Clint, it's the same rationale as today

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> appeasement

[21:06] <Clint-VHL> Understood. I guess.

[21:06] <VCI-Bob> trying to take the path of least resistance to avoid trouble

[21:06] <Clint-VHL> I understand the words, just not the logic.

[21:06] <VCI-Bob> give them what they want for "peace"

[21:06] <VCI-Bob> yeah, me neither

[21:07] <VCI-Bob> Remember the people you purchased of old, the tribe of your inheritance, whom you redeemed-- Mount Zion, where you dwelt. (Psalms 74:2 NIV)

[21:07] <VCI-Bob> Though God has not forgotten Israel...

[21:07] <VCI-Bob> we are to pray for Him to "Remember" His many promises

[21:07] <VCI-Bob> and remember the place where He said His name would dwell forever

[21:08] <VCI-Bob> The next few verse speak historically of the destruction of the temple, the results of which remain to this day

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[21:08] <VCI-Bob> Turn your steps toward these everlasting ruins, all this destruction the enemy has brought on the sanctuary. (Psalms 74:3 NIV)

[21:08] <VCI-Bob> Shalom, Light

[21:08] <light2-VHL> Hi Bob, sorry to be late

[21:09] <VCI-Bob> Your foes roared in the place where you met with us; they set up their standards as signs. (Psalms 74:4 NIV)

[21:09] <VCI-Bob> They behaved like men wielding axes to cut through a thicket of trees. (Psalms 74:5 NIV)

[21:09] <VCI-Bob> They smashed all the carved paneling with their axes and hatchets. (Psalms 74:6 NIV)

[21:09] <VCI-Bob> Interesting, isnt it, that even though the destruction in 586 BC and 70 AD were decreed by God...

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> in another sense, they are regarded as being performed by His foes

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> They burned your sanctuary to the ground; they defiled the dwelling place of your Name. (Psalms 74:7 NIV)

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> They said in their hearts, "We will crush them completely!" They burned every place where God was worshiped in the land. (Psalms 74:8 NIV)

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> Because, it was, after all His House

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> His sanctuary

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> and... the sentiments express in v 8

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> are the same as the enemies of Israel today, though veiled by the "peace process"

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[21:11] <Delta-VHL> :-)

[21:11] <Bezalel-VHL> 2WB Delta

[21:11] <Clint-VHL> A very thin veil.

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> and v 9, is a mournful conclusion

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> We are given no miraculous signs; no prophets are left, and none of us knows how long this will be. (Psalms 74:9 NIV)

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> Is that not the state of Israel today?

[21:12] <Clint-VHL> Yes.

[21:12] <Clint-VHL> !!!!!

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[21:12] <VCI-Bob> The next part... is a petition, and a reminder of what He has done in the pas

[21:12] <VCI-Bob> past

[21:12] <VCI-Bob> How long will the enemy mock you, O God? Will the foe revile your name forever? (Psalms 74:10 NIV)

[21:12] <VCI-Bob> Why do you hold back your hand, your right hand? Take it from the folds of your garment and destroy them! (Psalms 74:11 NIV)

[21:12] <light2-VHL> It could also refer to the coming judgement of the church

[21:13] <VCI-Bob> Light, this is NOT talking about the church

[21:13] <light2-VHL> Verse 2 calls them mount Zion

[21:13] <VCI-Bob> and in v 12 and follwoing...

[21:13] <VCI-Bob> a recitation of what He has done before:

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> But you, O God, are my king from of old; you bring salvation upon the earth. (Psalms 74:12 NIV)

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters. (Psalms 74:13 NIV)

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert. (Psalms 74:14 NIV)

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> It was you who opened up springs and streams; you dried up the ever flowing rivers. (Psalms 74:15 NIV)

[21:14] <Clint-VHL> Zion refers to Israel and especially the temple mount.

[21:14] <light2-VHL> compare with hebrews 12:22

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> The day is yours, and yours also the night; you established the sun and moon. (Psalms 74:16 NIV)

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> It was you who set all the boundaries of the earth; you made both summer and winter. (Psalms 74:17 NIV)

[21:15] <VCI-Bob> Light, we do not wish to get in those debates again, and if you are disruptive like you were the other day in Stan's chat, I will toss you out

[21:15] <VCI-Bob> I love you, Sister, but do not be a disruption, please

[21:15] <light2-VHL> what is disruptive about quoteing another scripture?

[21:16] <VCI-Bob> you know what I am talking about

[21:16] <VCI-Bob> ok, let's continue

[21:16] <light2-VHL> sorry I thought you were interested in the truth

[21:16] <VCI-Bob> After the psalmist recites what God has done....

[21:16] <Clint-VHL> Your obviously not Light.

[21:16] <light2-VHL> Oh more than you know clint

[21:16] <VCI-Bob> ok, let's drop it, please

[21:16] <Clint-VHL> Thanks Bob.

[21:17] <VCI-Bob> the psalmist then returns to his petitions

[21:17] <VCI-Bob> Remember how the enemy has mocked you, O LORD, how foolish people have reviled your name. (Psalms 74:18 NIV)

[21:17] <VCI-Bob> once again, asking the Lord to look on, and remember

[21:18] <VCI-Bob> which we pray today, that God will take notice, and act!

[21:18] <VCI-Bob> Do not hand over the life of your dove to wild beasts; do not forget the lives of your afflicted people forever. (Psalms 74:19 NIV)

[21:18] <VCI-Bob> Have regard for your covenant, because haunts of violence fill the dark places of the land. (Psalms 74:20 NIV)

[21:18] <VCI-Bob> In v 20, reminding God of His eternal covenant with Israel, that He would once again have compassion on them as He promised

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> For example:

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> For your Maker is your husband-- the LORD Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth. (Isaiah 54:5 NIV)

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> The LORD will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit-- a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your God. (Isaiah 54:6 NIV)

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. (Isaiah 54:7 NIV)

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer. (Isaiah 54:8 NIV)

[21:20] <VCI-Bob> "To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again. (Isaiah 54:9 NIV)

[21:20] <VCI-Bob> Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed," says the LORD, who has compassion on you. (Isaiah 54:10 NIV)

[21:20] <VCI-Bob> Wonderful, wonderful reassurance of God's faithfulness to Israel, in spite of their rejection of Him!

[21:20] <VCI-Bob> those verses alone should shut up any replacement theologist

[21:20] <Nancy-VHL> 10and a picture of His faithfulness to us

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> yes, Nancy :)

[21:21] <Nancy-VHL> 10We like Israel have sinned

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> but first, and primarily, those verses were directed to Israel

[21:21] <Nancy-VHL> 10yes,

[21:21] <Clint-VHL> That is precisely what is bothering me about the church. Somehow they want to exclude Israel when God Himself has not.

[21:22] <Nancy-VHL> 10Then they are wrong

[21:22] <VCI-Bob> Right, Clint - I never cease to be astounded at how much bad theology abounds regarding Israel - it is APPALLING

[21:22] <light2-VHL> Bob can I ask a question

[21:22] <VCI-Bob> sure, Light :)

[21:22] <Clint-VHL> Amen brother.

[21:23] <light2-VHL> Ok I am wondering just how you interpet vs 2 of Ps 74

[21:23] <VCI-Bob> sure :)

[21:23] <VCI-Bob> Remember the people you purchased of old, the tribe of your inheritance, whom you redeemed-- Mount Zion, where you dwelt. (Psalms 74:2 NIV)

[21:23] <VCI-Bob> well, first of all...

[21:24] <VCI-Bob> God told the children of Israel....

[21:24] <light2-VHL> How could they lose the sanctuary if they are the redeemed

[21:24] <VCI-Bob> when the came to the land, there would be a special place where His Name would dwell forever

[21:25] <Nancy-VHL> 10Living Bible says: Remember that we are your people. the ones you chose in ancient times from slavery and made the choicest of your posessions. You chose Jerusalem as your home on earth.

[21:25] <VCI-Bob> As Solomon prayed: May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, 'My Name shall be there,' so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. (1 Kings 8:29 NIV)

[21:25] <Clint-VHL> Thanks Nancy.:-)

[21:25] <light2-VHL> But after c

[21:26] <Nancy-VHL> 10definetly speaking to Israel

[21:26] <light2-VHL> sorry

[21:26] <light2-VHL> But after Christ came, we became the temple, for the shikinah glory left the physical temple

[21:26] <Clint-VHL> Right.

[21:26] <VCI-Bob> True, light

[21:27] <VCI-Bob> but that does not eliminate God's promises for the future of that place

[21:27] <Clint-VHL> Amen.

[21:27] <light2-VHL> Bob I just think we have to be very sure what we are teaching is of God and not just mans thinking

[21:27] <VCI-Bob> I agree wholeheartedly, Light

[21:27] <Nancy-VHL> 10Bob, dumb question

[21:28] <light2-VHL> You have to look at all scripture not just old testamen

[21:28] <VCI-Bob> and I could show you dozens of Scriptures if you wanted

[21:28] <VCI-Bob> I know the New Testament also, Light :)

[21:28] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Nancy?

[21:28] <light2-VHL> so what does hebrews 2 :12 mean in the light of your interpretation??

[21:28] <Nancy-VHL> 10where the old testament jews saved by their sacrafice, I mean

[21:29] <Clint-VHL> If any man interjects his thinking into scripture, he can make it say anything that he wants it to, but it then is perverted with human thoughts and it is not pure any longer.

[21:29] <Nancy-VHL> 10after Jesus came, they couldn't keep the whole law.

[21:29] <VCI-Bob> Nancy's question first,ok, Light?

[21:29] <light2-VHL> sure

[21:29] <VCI-Bob> No, Nancy, the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin, as Hebrews says

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[21:29] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Annie

[21:30] <Clint-VHL> Hi annie. Got your armor?

[21:30] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah, but before Jesus became the final sacrafice...

[21:30] <Kathy-VHL> Bob arent they the ones Jesus preached to when he decended

[21:30] <Annie-VHL> Shalom All

[21:30] <VCI-Bob> It was symbolic of the ultimate sacrifice the Messiah would make - He alone was sufficient to atone for sins

[21:30] <Kathy-VHL> and were they not the ones who were seen in the streets alive

[21:30] <light2-VHL> Nancy Ps fifty verse nine talks about how God views sacrifices too

[21:30] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Nancy?

[21:31] <Annie-VHL> Yes Clint just got home from church

[21:31] <Kathy-VHL> are they not in heaven with Him now

[21:31] <Clint-VHL> God.:-)

[21:31] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah?

[21:31] <Nancy-VHL> 10:)

[21:31] <VCI-Bob> The sacrifices were too show Israel that blood was needed to atone, and that death was the price for sin

[21:31] <VCI-Bob> was there more?

[21:31] <VCI-Bob> or did we answer it? :)

[21:32] <Nancy-VHL> 10Then there faith in a future Messiah was what saved them?

[21:32] <Nancy-VHL> 10as they are still waiting for Him, right?

[21:32] <VCI-Bob> Well, yes, they did not have all of the information, of course, it was a mystery to them...

[21:32] <Nancy-VHL> 10humm, I just always wondered.

[21:33] <VCI-Bob> but read the Psalms for example - they spoke of the need for mercy, and forgiveness, and atonement

[21:33] <Kathy-VHL> I thought Jesus went to the grave where they were and told them who he was and then took them with him

[21:33] <VCI-Bob> yes, Kathy

[21:33] <VCI-Bob> they did not go to heaven before Jesus, they went to the waiting place, the "good" side of Hades...

[21:33] <Kathy-VHL> then they were saved when they accepted who He was right

[21:33] <VCI-Bob> because the way had not yet been made for them

[21:33] <Clint-VHL> Thanks Bob.

[21:34] <Nancy-VHL> 10right

[21:34] <Kathy-VHL> yes and that is where Jesus went

[21:34] <VCI-Bob> right

[21:34] <Clint-VHL> I'm glad you cleared that up.

[21:34] <Kathy-VHL> and He preached to them and told them who he was right

[21:34] <VCI-Bob> "Abrahams bosom" Jesus called it

[21:34] <Nancy-VHL> 10yes thanks Bob :)

[21:34] <Kathy-VHL> and took them to heaven

[21:34] <VCI-Bob> right :)

[21:35] <Kathy-VHL> so their sacrifices only held them in the good side of Hades untill He came

[21:35] <Nancy-VHL> 10OH I want to see Him, Look upon His face

[21:35] <Clint-VHL> LOL:-):-):-)

[21:35] <VCI-Bob> Oh yes :)

[21:35] <Nancy-VHL> 10There to live forever by HIs saving Grace.

[21:35] <Nancy-VHL> 10Oh sorry, got carried away

[21:35] <VCI-Bob> that's ok, Nancy!!!!! :)

[21:35] <VCI-Bob> ok, now to Light's question :)

[21:35] <Annie-VHL> That will be wonderful

[21:36] <VCI-Bob> He says, "I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises." (Hebrews 2:12 NIV)

[21:36] <VCI-Bob> And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again he says, "Here am I, and the children God has given me." (Hebrews 2:13 NIV)

[21:36] <light2-VHL> That is not how my version reads, can I post it?

[21:36] <VCI-Bob> sure

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[21:37] <VCI-Bob> Here's NASB:

[21:37] <VCI-Bob> saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM THY NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING THY PRAISE." (Hebrews 2:12 NASB)

[21:37] <VCI-Bob> And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME." (Hebrews 2:13 NASB)

[21:37] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Rich!

[21:37] <light2-VHL> oh wait a minute wrong verse Bob sorry its heb 12:22

[21:37] <Rich-VHL> 7Hello everyone

[21:37] <Rich-VHL> 7how are ya Bob

[21:37] <VCI-Bob> oh, too bad, cuz there's lots of good stuff there :)

[21:38] <Rich-VHL> 7hi bez

[21:38] <light2-VHL> But that is interesting that you posted that verse because it comes from Isaiah 9

[21:38] <VCI-Bob> I think I'll go back to there after the question :)

[21:38] <Nancy-VHL> 10Hi Rich

[21:38] <Rich-VHL> 7light

[21:38] <light2-VHL> Hi Rich

[21:38] <Rich-VHL> 7hello Nancy

[21:38] <Clint-VHL> You're too quick, Bob.

[21:38] <Annie-VHL> Hi Rich

[21:38] <Nancy-VHL> 10called out :)

[21:38] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi rich.

[21:38] <Rich-VHL> 7HI Annie

[21:38] <VCI-Bob> ok, a little context....

[21:38] <VCI-Bob> saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM THY NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING THY PRAISE." (Hebrews 2:12 NASB)

[21:38] <VCI-Bob> And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME." (Hebrews 2:13 NASB)

[21:38] <Clint-VHL> Hi guys.

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> oops

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; (Hebrews 12:18 NIV)

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, (Hebrews 12:19 NIV)

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." (Hebrews 12:20 NIV)

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear." (Hebrews 12:21 NIV)

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> He is contrasting the fear of the old covenant.....

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> to the glory of the new....

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, (Hebrews 12:22 NIV)

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, (Hebrews 12:23 NIV)

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24 NIV)

[21:39] <Rich-VHL> 7with the hope of the new Bob

[21:39] <light2-VHL> sorry it comes from Isaiah eight:18

[21:39] <VCI-Bob> Right!

[21:40] <light2-VHL> We are part of the new mount Zion the heavenly one

[21:40] <Rich-VHL> 7Glory to our God and Lord Jesus

[21:40] <VCI-Bob> and, verse 22, light, though it speaks of the heavenly Jerusalem and Zion, does not eliminate or erase the promises of God for earthly Zion, from which Jesus will reign

[21:41] <Clint-VHL> AMEN.

[21:41] <VCI-Bob> when I say "earthly" - I mean the place on the earth

[21:41] <Rich-VHL> 7our King The Lord Jesus is comming soon

[21:41] <light2-VHL> No I know that God is still going to deal with Israel, but only those that accept Christ will be saved

[21:41] <VCI-Bob> for example:

[21:41] <VCI-Bob> The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. (Psalms 2:4 NIV)

[21:41] <VCI-Bob> Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, (Psalms 2:5 NIV)

[21:41] <VCI-Bob> "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." (Psalms 2:6 NIV)

[21:41] <light2-VHL> There is no other name under heaven where by you must be saved

[21:42] <Annie-VHL> tht is true

[21:42] <light2-VHL> I am afraid of a new doctrine going around that says that the Jews are already right with the father apart from the gospel

[21:42] <Clint-VHL> Light He (JESUS) is the Jews Messiah.

[21:42] <light2-VHL> and the scripture does not support this teaching

[21:42] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Light, only those who accept Jesus as Messiah will be saved, but the Scriptures teach of a future day when Israel en masse will come to this faith- - I don't understand how or when, but that's what God has said

[21:42] <Rich-VHL> 7on the throne of David He will sit ruling all there is

[21:43] <Bezalel-VHL> 2AMEN BOB!

[21:43] <Clint-VHL> Amen BOB.

[21:43] <light2-VHL> Could we safely say it will only be at His second coming to earth

[21:43] <Rich-VHL> 7actually its His throne

[21:43] <light2-VHL> His feet will touch the mount of Olives

[21:43] <Kathy-VHL> there are a lot of Jews who already accept Him

[21:44] <light2-VHL> Yes there are and they are part of the church

[21:44] <Clint-VHL> Amen Kathy.

[21:44] <light2-VHL> His body

[21:44] <Rich-VHL> 7the more the better Kathy

[21:44] <VCI-Bob> Well, we can only "safely say" what the Scriptures say, so that's what we need to examine :) and none of us has a total handle on it, right?

[21:44] <Kathy-VHL> right and those who come to Him will be the same

[21:44] <light2-VHL> He takes the Jew and gentile and makes them one in HIm

[21:44] <Nancy-VHL> 10Right Light and God will take away the blindness of the Jews at His apointed time.

[21:44] <Rich-VHL> 7thats right Bob

[21:45] <Kathy-VHL> right Bob but we do know those things

[21:45] <Rich-VHL> 7we have to take it all on faith in Jesus

[21:45] <light2-VHL> Well Bob we do have to be careful for some very pernicuious doctrine going around

[21:45] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Light, I know, there's a lot of it

[21:45] <Clint-VHL> SoWhere is it coming from Light?

[21:45] <Nancy-VHL> 10always has been Light

[21:45] <light2-VHL> I am not against Israel, our family is jews

[21:46] <Nancy-VHL> 10That old serpent the Devil has always put out false doctrine

[21:46] <light2-VHL> There will always be persecution when a man preaches Christ and Him crucified

[21:46] <VCI-Bob> OK - let's think of Scriptures where it talks about the future enlightenment of Israel

[21:46] <light2-VHL> Yes Nancy and its getting worse

[21:46] <VCI-Bob> I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25 NIV)

[21:46] <VCI-Bob> And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (Romans 11:26 NIV)

[21:46] <VCI-Bob> And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Romans 11:27 NIV)

[21:46] <light2-VHL> Could I ask one more question Bob??

[21:47] <VCI-Bob> He's quoting from Isaiah

[21:47] <Clint-VHL> Amen Bob.

[21:47] <VCI-Bob> Sure, Light

[21:47] <VCI-Bob> Isaiah 59, by the way

[21:47] <light2-VHL> Ok , first of all, do you think that Jesus is Jehova God?

[21:48] <Rich-VHL> 7Jesus is the Word of God

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> do I "think"??? Of course He is

[21:48] <light2-VHL> Ok but one of your moderators said that God was God and Jesus was just Messiah

[21:49] <light2-VHL> And I did not understand what was meant by that

[21:49] <Clint-VHL> If he is not, then I'm not saved and am still in my sins.

[21:49] <Kathy-VHL> Jehovah is the Father Jesus is the Son

[21:49] <Rich-VHL> 7Gods only begotten Son Is Jesus

[21:49] <light2-VHL> Yes exactly

[21:49] <VCI-Bob> I read that, Light, and that person did NOT say "Just the Messiah"

[21:49] <light2-VHL> And there is proof from the OT

[21:50] <light2-VHL> well Messiah is Messiah

[21:50] <VCI-Bob> So you should be more specific before you level charges like that... that someone denies the Deity of Jesus

[21:50] <light2-VHL> But if you take a good look at Ex six and verse three

[21:50] <Annie-VHL> He said "I and my Father are one"

[21:50] <VCI-Bob> Light, that's enough - this is unnecessary

[21:50] <light2-VHL> God tells how he appeared unto Abraham , Isaac and Jacob'

[21:50] <Nancy-VHL> 10Want to hear what Bob has to teach us Light, don't want to argue over things we all agree on.

[21:51] <Clint-VHL> Amen Nancy.

[21:51] <light2-VHL> I thought it was neat

[21:51] <Rich-VHL> 7the context of the word one here is to be united in purpose I think Kathy

[21:51] <Kathy-VHL> the word God means Devine

[21:51] <Kathy-VHL> Jehovah = Devine Jesus + Devine

[21:52] <Kathy-VHL> I mean = devina

[21:52] <Clint-VHL> I don't think that anyone including me understands everything there is to know about God.

[21:52] <Kathy-VHL> right

[21:52] <light2-VHL> compared to Gen 32:30

[21:52] <Nancy-VHL> 10We look through a glass darkly,...always liked that!!!

[21:52] <Rich-VHL> 7we are but children , His children

[21:52] <Nancy-VHL> 10silly little lambs

[21:52] <Clint-VHL> Me too Nancy.

[21:53] <Nancy-VHL> 10bleet, bleet

[21:53] <Kathy-VHL> stuborn too lol

[21:53] <Nancy-VHL> 10thanks Clint :)

[21:53] <VCI-Bob> Right - the church has tripped over terminology for years regarding the mystery of the Trinity - there is one God, and He took on human flesh - Jesus was fully man, and fully God - one with the Father, yet somehow distinct - how can you define that to our finite minds? You cannot

[21:53] <Rich-VHL> 7me too Nancy

[21:53] <Nancy-VHL> 10yeah

[21:53] <Clint-VHL> :-)You are welcome Sister.

[21:53] <Nancy-VHL> 10:)

[21:53] <light2-VHL> It is wonderful to see Christ in the Ot

[21:53] <Annie-VHL> You got it Bob

[21:53] <Clint-VHL> Thanks Bob.

[21:54] <Kathy-VHL> It is one of those things you understand but you can't exolain it to someone who does not know it lol

[21:54] <Nancy-VHL> 10Right Kathy

[21:54] <Nancy-VHL> 10You know you know, but don't know why

[21:54] <Kathy-VHL> right

[21:54] <Clint-VHL> I personally see Christ from Gen 1 to Rev 22:21.

[21:54] <Rich-VHL> 7in Hebrew isn't the word Elohim plural Bob

[21:54] <Kathy-VHL> I understand it but I can;t explain it unless you understand it lol

[21:55] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Rich :)

[21:55] <Nancy-VHL> 10Kathy lol,

[21:55] <VCI-Bob> So... did we pass your orthodoxy tests, Light? :)

[21:55] <light2-VHL> I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have commited unto Him against that day

[21:55] <Kathy-VHL> Well Gen I says Let us make

[21:55] <Rich-VHL> 7then there is God the Father and God our Lord Jesus

[21:55] <light2-VHL> Well Bob that was not my biggest concern

[21:55] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Kathy, that's right

[21:55] <light2-VHL> But the salvation of souls is

[21:56] <Nancy-VHL> 10Well let's talk about the eternal security of the beliver..now that will get a discussion going.

[21:56] <VCI-Bob> LOL Kathy

[21:56] <VCI-Bob> I mean Nancy

[21:56] <VCI-Bob> :)

[21:56] <Rich-VHL> 7sounds good Kathy

[21:56] <Kathy-VHL> lol

[21:56] <Clint-VHL> Yeah Nancy.

[21:56] <Rich-VHL> 7yea Nancy

[21:56] <Nancy-VHL> 10:)

[21:56] <VCI-Bob> I told Kathy earlier....

[21:56] <light2-VHL> If people would just know who Christ is and what He has done , then there is not a question about being saved

[21:57] <VCI-Bob> at her request, I posted all the old chat logs on my website...

[21:57] <Kathy-VHL> that is going to be so great Bob

[21:57] <Nancy-VHL> 10yes

[21:57] <Rich-VHL> 7that day is comming real soon light

[21:57] <VCI-Bob> now, I'm not sure why someone would want to wade through all that :) it's a lot of reading to get out the nuggets :) but you are welcome to

[21:57] <Kathy-VHL> It will keep me busy for years lol

[21:57] <VCI-Bob> :)

[21:58] <Kathy-VHL> lots of good stuff on there

[21:58] <Annie-VHL> If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord He says you are saved and will go to heaven

[21:58] <Kathy-VHL> I have my little man on here that reads stuff to me so I can type and look up while he is reading lol

[21:58] <VCI-Bob> We had mentioned Isaiah 8 earlier...

[21:59] <Nancy-VHL> 10amazing Kathy :)

[21:59] <Kathy-VHL> We must believe with the heart because that is what God looks at

[21:59] <VCI-Bob> and there is an audio teaching on my website called...

[21:59] <VCI-Bob> "I will go back to my place and him from them until" that deals with Isaiah 8

[21:59] <Kathy-VHL> the devil believes with his head he know who Jesus is but he doesnt believe with the heart

[22:00] <VCI-Bob> it's worth the listen :) if I do say so myself

[22:00] <Clint-VHL> You know Bob I wish that the "church" would have some lessons on the proper interpretation of the BIBLE. Not that one prerson knows it all, but there are methods. You know what I mean.

[22:00] <VCI-Bob> also... I just this week finished my audio series on Habakkuk

[22:00] <VCI-Bob> yes, Clint, you are right

[22:00] <Kathy-VHL> most of the "church is too busy trying to please people

[22:00] <VCI-Bob> many many problems result from improper approaches to Bible interpretation

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> a proper hermeuntic, to use the theological term

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> which I misspelled :)

[22:01] <Clint-VHL> I seems that some folks take things out of context awfully easy. I had this problem last night in bible study.

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> hermeneutic

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> :)

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> yes, Clint

[22:01] <Nancy-VHL> 10Yeah, first thing you have to know is if it is speaking to the Church or Israel

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> right

[22:01] <Clint-VHL> I wasn't going to use that term brother.:-)

[22:02] <VCI-Bob> at the conference I was at, the "Sign Ministries" went over the principles for a correct interpretation of Scripture

[22:02] <Nancy-VHL> 10listening

[22:02] <Clint-VHL> Me too.

[22:02] <Clint-VHL> anxiously.

[22:02] <VCI-Bob> it's on their website at signministries.org if you are interested :) or... I can find it now...

[22:02] <Nancy-VHL> 10anxiously listening

[22:02] <VCI-Bob> hold on :)

[22:02] <light2-VHL> What conferance was that Bob?

[22:02] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I am still here.

[22:02] <Kathy-VHL> the Bible says that scripture interperts scripture

[22:03] <Clint-VHL> That's right Kathy.

[22:03] <Nancy-VHL> 10I believe that Kathy

[22:03] <Clint-VHL> That is the only way.

[22:03] <VCI-Bob> Parousia Conference at Zion's Hope in Orlando

[22:03] <Kathy-VHL> and with prayer believing theHoly Spirit teaches

[22:03] <Nancy-VHL> 10amen

[22:03] <Annie-VHL> you have to compare one with the other

[22:03] <Clint-VHL> Amen.

[22:03] <light2-VHL> are their teachings on the web?

[22:03] <Nancy-VHL> 10It is so exciting when God opens your eyes to a subject

[22:03] <VCI-Bob> ok, I'm going to post from their site...

[22:04] <Kathy-VHL> yes and widens the view that is what I like

[22:04] <Clint-VHL> But it must always be in context.

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> Hermeneutic is the method of interpretation that one uses to study something written or spoken; it is how one understands the Scriptures. To have validity, one's hermeneutic must be consistent and without contradiction and must never be governed by a theological predisposition or school of thought

[22:04] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Yes, light http://www.signministries.org/signministries/

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> In other words, if hermeneutic is controlled by theology then the Bible can be twisted to say whatever that theology would have it say.

[22:04] <light2-VHL> Thanks Bez

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> By employing a face value method of interpretation, the reader of Scripture attempts to discover the normal, natural, customary sense of the text as it was intended by the Author/author (God/human) at the time that it was written

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> When a consistent hermeneutic is applied, the meaning of Scripture can be understood. Then, as A.W. Tozer put it, "When you find the truth of Scripture, that truth always stands in judgment of you; you never stand in judgment of it."

[22:05] <Clint-VHL> Exactly what I said last night, only I spoke "country".:-)

[22:05] <Nancy-VHL> 10sure enough

[22:05] <Kathy-VHL> thas alrite Clint I tawk countree too

[22:05] <Nancy-VHL> 10Clint :)

[22:05] <VCI-Bob> Five Principles of Interpretation:

[22:05] <Nancy-VHL> 10why I do too

[22:05] <VCI-Bob> 1) Seek to discover the Author/author's intended meaning. The meaning of every passage of Scripture was determined at the time it was written by a human author divinely inspired and superintended by the Lord. The job of the interpreter is to discover that meaning. We do not have the freedom to add to or subtract from what God has written through human agents. This is the guiding principle of the face value method of biblical interpretation

[22:05] <light2-VHL> Bob can I ask another question

[22:05] <Clint-VHL> We are Famileeee.

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> just a sec, light

[22:06] <Kathy-VHL> shore are

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> 2) All Scripture is to be taken in its proper context be it words, phrases, passages, chapters, books,etc. Only when the greater context is known will you know what the writer intended by what is written. Do not error by "prooftexting" or taking biblical text out of context. Remember, "a text taken out of context is a pretext."

[22:06] <Clint-VHL> Boy if we all would stick to those principles of interpretation.

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> 3) All Scripture is to be compared with other Scripture. "The best interpreter of Scripture is other Scripture," said Martin Luther. When a given text is not explicit about a truth, no conclusion should be drawn about that truth until all relevant passages have been studied. Careful comparison always adds depth and clarity to one's understanding of Scripture.

[22:07] <VCI-Bob> 4) Determine the literal reference of figures of speech. A figure of speech will normally employ a comparison, a substitution, or an amplification as a means of "artfully varying" from what we think of as common use, to better clarify the passage. Figures of speech are often used in prophetic texts, and once understood, they normally can be recognized quite easily.

[22:07] <VCI-Bob> 5) Recognize that many passages of Scripture, in both Testaments, have both near and far implications and applications. For a near/far interpretation to be valid, it must clearly be allowed for by the context and by the specific wording of the text itself, as well as be consistent with the rest of Scripture.

[22:08] <VCI-Bob> That's it :)

[22:08] <Clint-VHL> And it is terrifficccccc.

[22:08] <Clint-VHL> :-)

[22:08] <Kathy-VHL> Bob you also have to consider the word meaning at the time it was written

[22:08] <Annie-VHL> that's great Bob, we have to ask the Holy Spirit to help us when we read

[22:08] <light2-VHL> Bob I was in fundemental Baptist Church and took a hermenutics class

[22:08] <Clint-VHL> :-)

[22:09] <VCI-Bob> yes, I can't tell how how often I have cringed when I have heard preachers preach, from Isaiah, for example, and apply it to us, which is good, but NEVER EVER explain what it meant in the primary application

[22:09] <light2-VHL> But I know one thing we sometimes fail to do

[22:09] <VCI-Bob> right, Annie

[22:09] <VCI-Bob> true, Kathy

[22:09] <light2-VHL> And that is let the Holy Spirit guide,

[22:09] <Kathy-VHL> some words today have a different meaning than they did then

[22:09] Dex-VHL [~Dex-VHL@proxy11.talkcity.com] has joined #VHL-Prophecy

[22:09] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi Dex.

[22:09] <Clint-VHL> The Holy Spirit is not going to add anything to the written Word.

[22:10] <VCI-Bob> but remember, that sometimes, the prophets, when seeing visions, and writing of them, did not know what they were referring to exactly

[22:10] <light2-VHL> Thats right, but he can compare scripture with scripture

[22:10] <Clint-VHL> Yes He can.

[22:10] <VCI-Bob> right, Kathy - that's why I refer to multiple translations to get a better feel for the nuance of the original word

[22:10] <Clint-VHL> And we should too.

[22:10] <light2-VHL> You have to remember the Jews of Jesus's day knew the scripture better than we do, but missed the Christ

[22:10] <Kathy-VHL> and You know because God is the author it is written so that believers do understand it

[22:11] <VCI-Bob> light, the ones who knew God, did not miss Him

[22:11] <light2-VHL> No all of course, some believed

[22:11] <Clint-VHL> What are you saying Light?

[22:11] <light2-VHL> I am saying sometimes mans interpretation can get in the way of what God is really trying to say

[22:11] <VCI-Bob> the ones who love Him from the heart, received Him wholeheartedly

[22:11] <Dex-VHL> HI Bexalel

[22:11] <Kathy-VHL> there is no way to miss what God says about the absolute truth

[22:12] <light2-VHL> Thats right

[22:12] <Clint-VHL> On that we can agree Sister. I'm going to hush.:-)

[22:12] <Rich-VHL> 7hiDex

[22:12] <Kathy-VHL> it is only a mater of beoieving it

[22:12] <VCI-Bob> certainly, Light, which is why God told not many to be "teachers"

[22:12] <Dex-VHL> Hi everyone

[22:12] <light2-VHL> for sure

[22:12] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Dex!

[22:12] <Kathy-VHL> Hi Dex

[22:12] <Rich-VHL> 7the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth

[22:13] <Annie-VHL> Jesus spoke very simply and plain but had to use parables to help them

[22:13] <Kathy-VHL> only the cults mininterpret the absolute truth

[22:13] <Clint-VHL> One of the things that I encounter in my ministry is the false teaching that I have to undo.

[22:13] <light2-VHL> Yes and sometimes we over look the anologies of the scripture too

[22:13] <Dex-VHL> Thanks. My first time here. I've been looking for a place where prophecy is discussed. Am I at the right place?

[22:13] <VCI-Bob> I know, Clint, there's so much of it out there, and it just makes me sick

[22:13] <VCI-Bob> This is it, Dex!

[22:13] <Nancy-VHL> 10Y

[22:13] <Clint-VHL> And it is in the Church at Large.

[22:14] <Bezalel-VHL> 2You better believe it, Dex.

[22:14] <Rich-VHL> 7yes you are Dex

[22:14] <Dex-VHL> I'm smiling

[22:14] <Nancy-VHL> 10Welcome Dex :)

[22:14] <VCI-Bob> yes, Clint, agreed

[22:14] <Clint-VHL> Me also.

[22:14] <Kathy-VHL> But Jesus spoke clear and plain about the things we must believe

[22:14] <Annie-VHL> Hi Dex

[22:14] <Dex-VHL> What are we discussing?

[22:14] <VCI-Bob> Yes, He did, Kathy, but so many human teachers have muddled it so

[22:14] <light2-VHL> Time is coming Kathy where the things you believe about Christ will be forbidden to say

[22:14] <Nancy-VHL> 10So a Little child can understand

[22:14] <Kathy-VHL> He left us some food to grow on

[22:15] <VCI-Bob> Dex, we were looking at Daniel some earlier, and other places, but this is an open forum...

[22:15] <light2-VHL> Because they are having dialogues that forbid us to witness of Christ

[22:15] <Clint-VHL> Something that I've noticed, every teacher believes that he is right, no matter what he, in fact, believes.

[22:15] <VCI-Bob> anything you'd like to suggest, Dex?

[22:15] <Rich-VHL> 7the world really doesn't like Jesus

[22:16] <Kathy-VHL> no they don't Rich

[22:16] <light2-VHL> The world does not like the truth either

[22:16] <Nancy-VHL> 10The world is beginning to hate christians as never before

[22:16] <Annie-VHL> Clint I'm sure God honors all those that are trying to understand

[22:16] <Rich-VHL> 7Jesus is the truth light

[22:16] <Kathy-VHL> that is because it exposes them

[22:16] <Clint-VHL> I love the Lord with everything that is within me.

[22:16] <Nancy-VHL> 10and it will get worse, as the day approaches

[22:16] <light2-VHL> They don't like it when you say Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life

[22:16] <light2-VHL> It is upon us Nancy

[22:16] <VCI-Bob> Here's a verse that may be applicable to Israel today...

[22:16] <Dex-VHL> I would really be interested in where you think the U.S. stands in regards to Daniel and Revelations. Or does it?

[22:16] <VCI-Bob> in the "peace process"

[22:16] <Nancy-VHL> 10right Light

[22:17] <VCI-Bob> This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it. (Isaiah 30:15 NIV)

[22:17] <Clint-VHL> Yes Annie, but it is terrible when anyone creates confusion.

[22:17] <VCI-Bob> Dex, that's a good question....

[22:17] <VCI-Bob> Anyone want to give Dex's question a shot?

[22:18] <VCI-Bob> Personally, I cannot see any conclusive direct references to the US in the Scriptures, though there may be...

[22:18] <Rich-VHL> 7we can only know Dex that as great as our nation is the u.s. it can't be ignored in sciptures of last days

[22:18] <VCI-Bob> I have thought, at times, that Isaiah 18 may be referring to the US

[22:18] <light2-VHL> It will only be part of the global system

[22:18] <VCI-Bob> however, we know, that in the end, ALL nations will turn against the Lord

[22:18] <Kathy-VHL> I think we are going to become weak

[22:19] <Clint-VHL> I have thoughts at times that I am living in BABYLON.

[22:19] <Nancy-VHL> 10Is there a scripture that speaks of England and her young lions? the u.s.

[22:19] <Annie-VHL> I wondered that Clint

[22:19] <light2-VHL> We have a wicked society for sure

[22:19] <Rich-VHL> 7we already have haven't we Kathy

[22:19] <VCI-Bob> In a sense, yes, Clint, because Babylon represents all systems, religous, political, etc that are opposed to the Lord

[22:19] <Clint-VHL> I mean the Nation Annie.:->

[22:20] <light2-VHL> The beast is referred to 2 in Scripture in the nueter,

[22:20] <light2-VHL> So it is not just a man

[22:20] <light2-VHL> it could be what were on right now

[22:20] <Kathy-VHL> yes and one reason I think that is because God is going to save Israel and fight her battle and the US has to be out of the way or Israel would look to the US

[22:20] <light2-VHL> a www

[22:20] <VCI-Bob> Nancy, I've heard that, but don't see much merit in that viewpoitn, personally

[22:20] <Rich-VHL> 7the u.s. has great power but is not proud of it anymore

[22:20] <Dex-VHL> I have think that if we are in Daniel or Revelations that perhaps we could symbolize the small horn in Daniel that grew out of the Revived Roman Empire. Any thoughts?

[22:21] <light2-VHL> Bob can I interject a thought here

[22:21] <VCI-Bob> certainly!

[22:21] <Clint-VHL> Where is the anchor that we need here Bob?

[22:21] <light2-VHL> I was studying Chronicles the other day

[22:21] <light2-VHL> where it lists Davids army

[22:21] <Annie-VHL> the beast could be your computer

[22:22] <light2-VHL> and how 24000 ministered each month

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[22:22] <light2-VHL> and it lists 12 months

[22:22] <VCI-Bob> tell us, Clint :)

[22:22] <light2-VHL> which 12x 24 = 288,000

[22:22] <VCI-Bob> MY computer, Annie? boy, I hope not! :)

[22:22] <light2-VHL> now divide that by two

[22:22] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Shelly!

[22:22] <light2-VHL> 144,000

[22:23] <shelly-ga-VHL> hi everyone!

[22:23] <Rich-VHL> 7hello shelly

[22:23] <Clint-VHL> I'm having a hard time finding a place to throw it. Afraid I might hit someone.:-)

[22:23] <light2-VHL> that is half the army of Israel

[22:23] <VCI-Bob> Glad to have ya!

[22:23] <Dex-VHL> :-)

[22:23] <light2-VHL> If you study the names of the captians

[22:23] <VCI-Bob> Anchor's away, Clint!

[22:23] <shelly-ga-VHL> glad to be here!

[22:23] <light2-VHL> it is very interesting

[22:23] <Annie-VHL> Shalom Shelly

[22:23] <Rich-VHL> 7computers are just tools Clint

[22:23] <light2-VHL> esp the last Captian

[22:23] <light2-VHL> His name means worldly

[22:23] <Clint-VHL> :-)

[22:23] <shelly-ga-VHL> hello annie

[22:23] <Nancy-VHL> 10got to go, blessings to all :->

[22:23] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Light?

[22:24] <VCI-Bob> Blessings to YOU, Nancy!

[22:24] <light2-VHL> Well just pray about it

[22:24] <Kathy-VHL> bye Nancy

[22:24] <VCI-Bob> thanks for joining us!

[22:24] <shelly-ga-VHL> bye

[22:24] <Clint-VHL> Light, what do you do with the other 144,000?

[22:24] <light2-VHL> Maybe there is a message to us here

[22:24] <Annie-VHL> Shalom Nancy

[22:24] <Rich-VHL> 7hard to use tools sometimes Clint

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[22:24] <light2-VHL> How many elders were in heaven when John was taken up

[22:24] <light2-VHL> 24

[22:24] <Clint-VHL> Night Nancy.

[22:24] <light2-VHL> I am not saying I know anything

[22:25] <VCI-Bob> Dex, let's take a look at Daniel 7, what you mentioned, ok?

[22:25] <light2-VHL> I am saying God is a God of mathmatics and there may be a message here

[22:25] <light2-VHL> esp when you study all the meanings of the names

[22:25] <light2-VHL> very inlightening

[22:25] <VCI-Bob> Daniel had a dream

[22:25] <Dex-VHL> Sure. Can we use your Bible. Mine

[22:25] <VCI-Bob> thanks, Light :)

[22:25] <light2-VHL> Sure Hope someone will enjoy the study, I did

[22:26] <VCI-Bob> He had a dream of four fearsome beasts

[22:26] <Dex-VHL> Sure. Can we use your Bible? Mine's in the truck and it's pouring outside.

[22:26] <Clint-VHL> God does use numbers in scripture Light, but it is certainly mysterious if we do not stay true to hermaneutics.

[22:26] <shelly-ga-VHL> i'm ready to see jesus in the sky

[22:26] <light2-VHL> Where are you Dex?

[22:26] <VCI-Bob> right, Cline

[22:26] <VCI-Bob> sure, Dex :)

[22:26] <light2-VHL> We need that rain here

[22:26] <Rich-VHL> 7me too shelly

[22:26] <VCI-Bob> I'll paste the verses here

[22:26] <Dex-VHL> Ga.

[22:26] <VCI-Bob> Let's look at the fourth of the four beasts

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. (Daniel 7:7 NIV)

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully. (Daniel 7:8 NIV)

[22:27] <light2-VHL> Send some moisture to calif

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. (Daniel 7:9 NIV)

[22:27] <Annie-VHL> Got to go I'll study more, Bless you all

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> Bye, Annie! Shalom!

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> Always great to have you here!

[22:27] <Clint-VHL> Calif? Light?

[22:27] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10bye girl

[22:27] <light2-VHL> Yep

[22:27] <Rich-VHL> 7God bless Annie

[22:27] <Dex-VHL> bye yall

[22:28] <light2-VHL> Bye Annie

[22:28] <Clint-VHL> Good night Annie.

[22:28] <VCI-Bob> OK, so, the fourth beast, is the Roman empire.....

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[22:28] <VCI-Bob> but....

[22:28] <Dex-VHL> correct

[22:28] <VCI-Bob> this is one of those "near/far" occasions we mentioned earlier

[22:28] <VCI-Bob> how do we know that?

[22:28] <Clint-VHL> That explains some things, Light.:-)

[22:28] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10is the pre-tribulation rapture correct?

[22:28] <VCI-Bob> from verse 9

[22:29] <VCI-Bob> whoa Shelly! what a question! :) it depends who you ask :)

[22:29] <light2-VHL> Like what Clint?

[22:29] <Clint-VHL> Lighten up Light, just kidding.:-)

[22:29] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10isnt that the truth Bob!

[22:29] <Rich-VHL> 7won't this last world empire in our time be the fourth beast Bob

[22:29] <Clint-VHL> Let's get into the study with Bob, OK?

[22:29] <light2-VHL> Hey why are you guys always so touchy:->

[22:30] <VCI-Bob> yes, Rich, the fourth beast is both the Roman empire, and the empire that of the antichrist

[22:30] <Clint-VHL> I got skin like an armadillo.

[22:30] <VCI-Bob> we know that because...

[22:30] <VCI-Bob> "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. (Daniel 7:9 NIV)

[22:30] <Rich-VHL> 7I thought so

[22:30] <light2-VHL> ??

[22:30] <VCI-Bob> everyone ok so far?

[22:31] <Dex-VHL> yes

[22:31] <Clint-VHL> Go Bob.

[22:31] <Kathy-VHL> ok

[22:31] <light2-VHL> Iam lost

[22:31] <Rich-VHL> 7yup

[22:31] <light2-VHL> we know that because why?

[22:31] <VCI-Bob> "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. (Daniel 7:11 NIV)

[22:31] <VCI-Bob> (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) (Daniel 7:12 NIV)

[22:31] <VCI-Bob> "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. (Daniel 7:13 NIV)

[22:32] <VCI-Bob> ok, because v 13 is very certainly about the coming of Jesus

[22:32] <Rich-VHL> 7yes

[22:32] <Dex-VHL> yes

[22:32] <Kathy-VHL> yes

[22:32] <VCI-Bob> Jesus Himself quoted this very verse when standing before the Sanhedrin!

[22:32] <Clint-VHL> Yes.

[22:32] <light2-VHL> what verse Bob?

[22:32] <Rich-VHL> 7yes

[22:32] <VCI-Bob> and v 14 is about His future rule:

[22:33] <light2-VHL> I mean in NT

[22:33] <VCI-Bob> He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:14 NIV)

[22:33] <light2-VHL> Amen to that

[22:33] <Rich-VHL> 7Ame and Amen

[22:33] <VCI-Bob> But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" (Mark 14:61 NIV)

[22:33] <VCI-Bob> "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62 NIV)

[22:33] <Clint-VHL> Amen Bob.

[22:33] <Rich-VHL> 7Amen

[22:33] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10amen

[22:34] <light2-VHL> thanks

[22:34] <light2-VHL> and Amen

[22:34] <VCI-Bob> sure :)

[22:34] <Rich-VHL> 7I can't wait

[22:34] <Dex-VHL> Where are you going with this Bob?

[22:34] <VCI-Bob> hang on and you'll see :)

[22:34] <Dex-VHL> O.K.

[22:34] <VCI-Bob> ok, back to v 8:

[22:34] <VCI-Bob> "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully. (Daniel 7:8 NIV)

[22:35] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hold on tight, Dex....it could get bumpy.

[22:35] <VCI-Bob> this is widely interpreted to be talking of the antichrist

[22:35] <Rich-VHL> 7sometimes does bez

[22:35] <Dex-VHL> I know this part by heart. Maybe he won't sling me off.

[22:35] <Bezalel-VHL> 2:-)

[22:35] <Dex-VHL> I agree.

[22:35] <VCI-Bob> which is confirmed to us when Daniel is given the interpretation

[22:36] <VCI-Bob> an important sidenote:

[22:36] <VCI-Bob> 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. (Daniel 7:17 NIV)

[22:36] <VCI-Bob> But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.' (Daniel 7:18 NIV)

[22:36] <Rich-VHL> 7these ten horns are the same as the ones in Revelations huh Bob

[22:37] <VCI-Bob> both this vision, and the one that Nechudnezzar had, spoke of the kingdom of Messiah crushing the kingdoms of earth

[22:37] <Dex-VHL> I think so.

[22:37] <VCI-Bob> yes, probably, Rich

[22:37] <Rich-VHL> 7yup

[22:37] <VCI-Bob> the Kingdom, unlike what some teach today, does not come about because Christians gradually gain power in the world

[22:38] <Clint-VHL> Amen to that Bob.

[22:38] <light2-VHL> I don't know if this vision is in Chronological order

[22:38] <Rich-VHL> 7thars right Bob

[22:38] <VCI-Bob> it comes when the King shows up to crush the world powers and rulers!

[22:38] <Clint-VHL> Man I'm about to shout.

[22:38] <VCI-Bob> yeah!!

[22:38] <Dex-VHL> My question is could the U.S.A. be the the little horn?

[22:38] <light2-VHL> I think that the Kingdom is 2 fold

[22:39] <VCI-Bob> the little horn is the antichrist, as we will see...

[22:39] <light2-VHL> first in is within you and second it will be established on earth when Christ comes

[22:39] <VCI-Bob> Daniel takes special note of that fourth beast...

[22:39] <light2-VHL> Christ and His rule is the Kingdome

[22:39] <VCI-Bob> "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws--the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. (Daniel 7:19 NIV)

[22:39] <VCI-Bob> "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws--the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. (Daniel 7:19 NIV)

[22:39] <VCI-Bob> I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell--the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. (Daniel 7:20 NIV)

[22:39] <Clint-VHL> I'm afraid to ask. What kingdom, Light?

[22:39] <Rich-VHL> 7I don't think so Dex doesn't Daniel say the little horn is greece

[22:40] <light2-VHL> Christ said the kingdom of God is within you

[22:40] <Dex-VHL> ??

[22:40] <VCI-Bob> Now, this next verse might be a little hard for the pre-tribbers: :)

[22:40] <VCI-Bob> As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, (Daniel 7:21 NIV)

[22:40] <VCI-Bob> until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. (Daniel 7:22 NIV)

[22:40] <Clint-VHL> I knew I should have kept quiet. Sorry,:-(

[22:40] <Rich-VHL> 7yes it is light by us possesing His Holy Soirit

[22:40] <light2-VHL> Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

[22:40] <Rich-VHL> 7Spirit

[22:40] <light2-VHL> Luke 17:21

[22:41] <light2-VHL> But He is coming to establish the earthy one also

[22:41] <VCI-Bob> the picture here is - the antichrist declares war on the saints, kills many of them, until the Messiah shows up on their behalf

[22:41] <light2-VHL> Other wise you could not be born again

[22:41] <light2-VHL> for to enter it you must be born again

[22:41] <light2-VHL> and that happens right now and here

[22:42] <Rich-VHL> 7we have the Kingdom of God in us light and its Gods Holy Spirit

[22:42] <Dex-VHL> 7I'm a pre-trib but I don't have a problem with that.

[22:42] <VCI-Bob> Light, why do you have to turn it all into a theological debate? You continually do that

[22:42] <light2-VHL> Christ in you the hope of Glory

[22:42] <Clint-VHL> One thing that I'm confused about, if you are right, and that is, are we taking the church and placing them into the setting in Daniel?

[22:42] <light2-VHL> That was not what I was trying to do Bob

[22:42] <light2-VHL> Just saying what Christ said

[22:43] <Dex-VHL> 7I've got you Bob.

[22:43] <light2-VHL> Nothing debating about it on my part

[22:43] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Clint - it seems to me the terminology is specific - when it talks of Israel, it says that, but here, and other places, it speaks of the "saints"

[22:43] <VCI-Bob> which, in my thinking, is as close to saying the "church" as you will see in the OT

[22:43] <Rich-VHL> 7all Believers

[22:43] <VCI-Bob> just my opinion, of course :)

[22:43] <Clint-VHL> Interesting. I'll think about it brother.:-)

[22:44] <light2-VHL> We are the saints Bob

[22:44] <Bezalel-VHL> 2The martyrs of the fifth seal will come from the tribulation, right, Bob?

[22:44] <VCI-Bob> I'm a saint, your a saint, he's a saint, we're all saints :)

[22:44] <VCI-Bob> right, Bez

[22:44] <Dex-VHL> 73Bob. Do you think the 4 beast not only represent men but kingdoms also.

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[22:44] <VCI-Bob> ok, back to the little horn

[22:44] <light2-VHL> Well those that are sanctified by the blood are saints

[22:44] <VCI-Bob> yes, Dex, kingdoms, but...

[22:45] <VCI-Bob> the little horn is a man, as we see here

[22:45] <VCI-Bob> The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. (Daniel 7:24 NIV)

[22:45] <VCI-Bob> He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25 NIV)

[22:45] <VCI-Bob> once again, we see that this man, the antichrist, will kill many in the church, for 3 1/2 years

[22:45] <light2-VHL> The word times there, means seasons in the hebrew

[22:46] <Bezalel-VHL> 2 3 and 1/2 years of persecution?

[22:46] <VCI-Bob> looks likes thats what is says?

[22:46] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10i'm ready to fight that sorry joker in jesus name

[22:46] <Rich-VHL> 7then we all will Glorifiy our God and His Holy Son Jesus

[22:46] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Amen, Shelly

[22:46] <VCI-Bob> :) Shelly, you'll get your chance :)

[22:47] <VCI-Bob> here's the good part:

[22:47] <VCI-Bob> "'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. (Daniel 7:26 NIV)

[22:47] <VCI-Bob> Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.' (Daniel 7:27 NIV)

[22:47] <Clint-VHL> Once again we see that this man will kill many for 3 1/2 years brother. I;m not sure yet that it is the church.:-)

[22:47] <VCI-Bob> :)

[22:47] <Rich-VHL> 7with a death that will certainly show the world that Jesus is Alive

[22:47] <light2-VHL> The main thing is to know Christ and His power, so we will have help from him to face whats coming

[22:47] <VCI-Bob> yes, Light :)

[22:47] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10amen light

[22:47] <VCI-Bob> Whew! :)

[22:47] <light2-VHL> I am not ashamed

[22:48] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Yes, Light!

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[22:48] <VCI-Bob> OK, I'm gonna make my exit now....

[22:48] <Clint-VHL> Very Very Interesting Bob.

[22:48] <VCI-Bob> thanks so much for another good evening of chat, everyone!

[22:48] <light2-VHL> and even though it seems contraversial we have to speak the truth, in love of course

[22:48] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10bye Bob

[22:48] <Rich-VHL> 7see ya Bob thanks for the evening

[22:48] <VCI-Bob> bye Shelly! come back again!

[22:48] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Thanks, Bob. This was a real experience tonight. Glad we all made it!

[22:48] <Kathy-VHL> great chat Bob Blessings

[22:48] <Dex-VHL> 3Before your go bob i have a question?

[22:48] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10thanks

[22:48] <VCI-Bob> Sure, Dex!

[22:49] <light2-VHL> Say Bob I know you have a bad opinion of me, but I was not trying to start trouble

[22:49] <Clint-VHL> Yeah I gotta go also. Enjoyed it all. Goodnight.

[22:49] <Dex-VHL> 3How do you type scipture so fast.

[22:49] <VCI-Bob> No, light, not a bad opinion.....

[22:49] <light2-VHL> I was just trying to say what the Spirit says in my heart to me

[22:49] <VCI-Bob> I just have to keep things going here :)

[22:49] <Kathy-VHL> nite clint

[22:49] <Kathy-VHL> Blessings

[22:49] <VCI-Bob> I don't Dex - I cut and paste from my Bible software, Quickverse

[22:49] <Clint-VHL> Light I believe that you do mean well. But, it is distracting.

[22:49] <Rich-VHL> 7by Clint

[22:49] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10god bless you light

[22:49] <light2-VHL> I am not trying to be a trouble starter, but I am jealous for Christ and I love Him

[22:50] <VCI-Bob> I know, Light :) and I appreciate that

[22:50] <Dex-VHL> 3Do you have time to tell me a little more about this?

[22:50] <Bezalel-VHL> 2We all love yoiu, Light.....

[22:50] <light2-VHL> God Bless, have a good night

[22:50] <light2-VHL> Thanks Bez

[22:50] <VCI-Bob> the software? well, it's available in most Christian bookstores

[22:50] <Clint-VHL> I don't necessary agree 100% with Bob or anyone else, but, we are here to discuss.

[22:50] <Kathy-VHL> nite Light blessings

[22:50] <VCI-Bob> I highly recommend it

[22:50] <Rich-VHL> 7you leaving light

[22:50] <VCI-Bob> it's easy to do searches on words or phrases

[22:50] <Dex-VHL> 3Where can I find it?

[22:51] <Clint-VHL> Night all. Love in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[22:51] <light2-VHL> well its Bible time here for me an hubby

[22:51] <VCI-Bob> most Christain bookstores

[22:51] <Clint-VHL> :-)

[22:51] <light2-VHL> so will go

[22:51] <light2-VHL> God Bless you all.

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[22:51] <Rich-VHL> 7good night light

[22:51] <light2-VHL> The Lord give you much light for the way

[22:51] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Night Light.

[22:51] <shelly-ga-VHL> 10nite !

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[22:51] <Dex-VHL> 3Thanks. I enjoyed the chat. Hope to chat with you soon. God Bless.

[22:51] <VCI-Bob> Great! Come back soon!

[22:51] <VCI-Bob> Good night everyone! :)

[22:51] <VCI-Bob> Shalom!

[22:52] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I'm going to leave also. Come back Mondays and Thursdays, Dex.

[22:52] <Rich-VHL> 7see ya Dex

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