*** Log file opened: 9/7/00 7:53:09 PM

[19:53] <light2-VHL> Pretty sad deal

[19:53] <VCI-Bob> Hi folks :)

[19:53] <called_out-VHL> 10Did you know that she is pastor of a church?

[19:53] <light2-VHL> figures

[19:54] <called_out-VHL> 10Where's your crown Bob?

[19:54] <light2-VHL> Well the only thing you could say to that bunch is " Get Saved"

[19:54] <VCI-Bob> Tonight, I won't be able to contribute quite as much - I injured my back last night playing racquetball, and I'm laid up in bed

[19:54] <VCI-Bob> I have the laptop computer here :)

[19:54] <called_out-VHL> 10:-O

[19:54] <light2-VHL> Ghandi 's granddaughter was there calling up the dead ancestors

[19:54] <skip-VHL> 4SO SORRY TO HEAR THAT BOB

[19:55] <VCI-Bob> So, I'll leave it up to you folks to keep things rolling along :)

[19:55] <called_out-VHL> 10That's awful Bob

[19:55] <Kathy-VHL> Hi Bob I was away for a minute sorry to hear about your back

[19:55] <VCI-Bob> Thanks Skip -it's getting better...

[19:55] <skip-VHL> 4was you hurt bad? I pray NOT

[19:55] <VCI-Bob> this morning I could barely move, but now I can at least get up

[19:55] <VCI-Bob> it's a pulled muscle or muscle spasm - not too bad

[19:55] <light2-VHL> Well have to send you some Ben Gay there Bob :->

[19:56] <VCI-Bob> :)

[19:56] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Back problems can be very bad. If they don't confine you to bed, they sure slow you down.

[19:56] <VCI-Bob> Yeah, I slept most of the day :)

[19:56] <skip-VHL> 4I cup white vinager -I cup epsom salt soak 15 min

[19:56] <light2-VHL> Racquet ball is hard game

[19:56] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Did they give you muscle relaxers? If so, be very careful.

[19:57] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Bez, they did - what should i be careful about?

[19:57] <light2-VHL> I don't know about vinegar Bob, you may live to regret it

[19:57] <skip-VHL> 4REALLY WORKS on sore muscles

[19:57] <called_out-VHL> 10I have fibromalgia and have to take muscle relaxers, and they knock me out.

[19:57] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Muscle relaxers put me out for the count....I slept for days on end.

[19:57] <VCI-Bob> ahh yes :)

[19:57] <skip-VHL> 4it doesnt burn or smell

[19:58] <called_out-VHL> 10does it really work Skip, not kidding?

[19:58] <VCI-Bob> So - what's on everyone's minds tonight?

[19:58] <Kathy-VHL> anybody know what happened at the summitt today

[19:58] <light2-VHL> Well some good old fashion prayer will work

[19:58] <skip-VHL> 4REALLY it does try it

[19:59] <called_out-VHL> 10I will try it!

[19:59] <VCI-Bob> :)

[20:00] <light2-VHL> I saw some film from Israel today on the 700 club, those palestinians are getting really worked up

[20:00] <VCI-Bob> Arafat continues to say "no compromise" on Jerusalem

[20:00] <light2-VHL> They had signs saying if anything happens to the dome of the rock they will bury Israel

[20:00] <called_out-VHL> 10hummm

[20:00] <skip-VHL> 4just itching for a fight aren't they

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> yes, they are - amazing that they call it a "peace process" at all

[20:01] <light2-VHL> Their going to get more than they bargained for

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> you got that right, Light :)

[20:01] <Bezalel-VHL> 2The "peace" process is an excellent excuse for Arafat and his thugs.

[20:01] <light2-VHL> Its only peace if its their way, ( they should own burger King)

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> look at this from Ezekiel:

[20:01] <skip-VHL> 4both sides agree on NO International Capital in Jerusalem tho

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> ""Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD." (Ezekiel 36:1 NIV)

[20:01] <VCI-Bob> "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The enemy said of you, "Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession."'" (Ezekiel 36:2 NIV)

[20:02] <VCI-Bob> "Therefore prophesy and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because they ravaged and hounded you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people's malicious talk and slander," (Ezekiel 36:3 NIV)

[20:02] <VCI-Bob> sounds like it's right out of today's headlines, huh?

[20:02] <called_out-VHL> 10Do you know what ancient heights is referring to?

[20:02] <light2-VHL> Yes and did you all see what the Pope was declaring, he says that all the churches that aren't Catholic are defective and can't lead to salvation

[20:03] <VCI-Bob> yes.... I think .... the hills of the Judea and Samaria, the "West Bank"

[20:03] <Kathy-VHL> Boy he is one to be talking

[20:04] <called_out-VHL> 10I read that too Light

[20:04] <VCI-Bob> let's hear your comments on that Ezekiel passage so far

[20:04] <light2-VHL> I just finished the book of Jeremiah , and several times the Lord promises to deliver Jacob, but not first without some punishment

[20:04] <skip-VHL> 4the possession of the nations may just mean what UN is talking about on the international caoitol bussiness huh

[20:05] <VCI-Bob> right, the attempt to "internationalize" Jerusalem

[20:05] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Palestine and then Israel, has always been treated as a territory. Rome, England, whoever.

[20:05] <skip-VHL> 4very interesting

[20:05] <called_out-VHL> 10Mountains of Israel? who?

[20:05] <VCI-Bob> God's response comes in the next few verses

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> "therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign LORD: This is what the Sovereign LORD says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you--" (Ezekiel 36:4 NIV)

[20:06] <VCI-Bob> "this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.'" (Ezekiel 36:5 NIV)

[20:06] <Bezalel-VHL> 2People's malicious talk and slander applies to the Jewish nation for the last 3500 years.

[20:06] <light2-VHL> Jeremiah also talks of Edoms punishment for this

[20:07] <VCI-Bob> "Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations." (Ezekiel 36:6 NIV)

[20:07] <VCI-Bob> "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn." (Ezekiel 36:7 NIV)

[20:07] <skip-VHL> 4where is IDUMEIA?

[20:07] <Kathy-VHL> Bob does Joel refer to this scripture it is very similar

[20:07] <light2-VHL> Bob, what do you think the Lord means by this

[20:07] <light2-VHL> Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

[20:07] <VCI-Bob> notice God says "I have spoken" and "I speak" - it is not ambiguous what He thinks

[20:08] <light2-VHL> What punishment, will they have do you think??

[20:08] <VCI-Bob> Where is that from, light?

[20:08] <light2-VHL> Jer 46:28

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[20:09] <VCI-Bob> It's saying that though the Lord has chastised Israel, it is not in the same way as those nations that opposed them

[20:09] <VCI-Bob> but only for correction and their ultimate restoration

[20:09] <VCI-Bob> unlike the other nations, which will be ultimately annihilated

[20:09] <Bezalel-VHL> 2And He never delighted in the punishment.

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[20:10] <light2-VHL> Never the less they must be punished it sounds like

[20:10] <light2-VHL> We should be glad when God deals with us as sons

[20:10] <light2-VHL> He corrects us for a reason

[20:10] <VCI-Bob> Skip, Idumea is the same as Edom - it is the term that was used in the time of Jesus

[20:11] <skip-VHL> 4but where is it now BOB?

[20:11] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Light, He has been dealing with them like that over the centuries

[20:11] <VCI-Bob> Edom, skip, is located in what is today the southern part of Jordan

[20:11] <light2-VHL> Bob according to your time line, do you think we are close to the revealing of the man of sin??

[20:11] <hands-VHL> 6Hello everyone:-)

[20:11] <VCI-Bob> I don't have a time line :)

[20:11] <VCI-Bob> Hello hands!

[20:11] <skip-VHL> 4HI HANDS

[20:12] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi Hands

[20:12] <skip-VHL> 4thanks bob

[20:12] <light2-VHL> Well how bout an educated guess?

[20:12] <hands-VHL> 6:-)

[20:12] <called_out-VHL> 10Hii Hands and EzGuest :)

[20:12] <EZGuest770> hi people

[20:12] <Kathy-VHL> Hi Guest

[20:12] <EZGuest770> hi

[20:13] <called_out-VHL> 10How are you holding up Bob? pain?

[20:13] <VCI-Bob> I'm always hesitant to make such guesses, other than to say it is close - Jesus said "I am coming soon"

[20:13] <skip-VHL> 4or even a wild guess

[20:13] <skip-VHL> 4:-)

[20:13] <VCI-Bob> :)

[20:14] <called_out-VHL> 10May be morning, may be noon, maybe evening, it will be soon.

[20:14] <hands-VHL> 6what is the wild guess about? I missed something:-)

[20:14] <light2-VHL> The revealing of the man of sin

[20:14] <VCI-Bob> I'm ok, just a little uncomfortable, not bad

[20:14] <hands-VHL> 6oh, when will Jesus come>?

[20:14] <called_out-VHL> 10good

[20:15] <VCI-Bob> We don't know the date, hands, but He has given us indicators of the things that will be happening, right?

[20:15] <Bezalel-VHL> 2My guess for revealing of the man of sin is 3.5 years from the signing of of peace treaty.

[20:15] <skip-VHL> 4maybe bible code WORKERS will come uup with a name soon huh?

[20:15] <Kathy-VHL> Bob I have been reading in Joel and I have a question for ya

[20:15] <VCI-Bob> yes, Kathy?

[20:15] <hands-VHL> 6oh yes! I think He won't put up with much more

[20:16] <light2-VHL> I think it will be a pope, this one has been sick and if a new one comes on the scene.......

[20:16] <VCI-Bob> that's right, hands

[20:16] <Kathy-VHL> what is this speaking of this valley 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

[20:17] <VCI-Bob> what's the reference, Kathy?

[20:17] <skip-VHL> 4I read where Rome already has alist of names foe next pope

[20:17] <hands-VHL> 6we can't know the hour but we CAN read the signs of the season

[20:17] <skip-VHL> 4LOOK UP ;-)

[20:17] <hands-VHL> 6amen!

[20:18] <hands-VHL> 6I wish we'd all be ready

[20:18] <VCI-Bob> It's Joel 3, I found it

[20:18] <light2-VHL> Kathy that is an interesting verse from Joel

[20:18] <skip-VHL> 4the we as in me is

[20:18] <hands-VHL> 6:-)

[20:18] <light2-VHL> It talks again there of the judgement of edom

[20:18] <VCI-Bob> Jehoshaphat means "judgment of Yahweh"

[20:19] <VCI-Bob> It is speaking of the final confrontation between the nations, and the Lord Jesus

[20:19] <light2-VHL> check out this verse from there..........Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

[20:20] <light2-VHL> Joel 3:19-21

[20:20] <VCI-Bob> Why don't we go through Joel 3 verse by verse? whaddya say?

[20:21] <called_out-VHL> 10:)

[20:21] <light2-VHL> Go for it

[20:21] <hands-VHL> 6brb

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> ok - this chapter is all talking about the "end times"

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> and verse 1 gives us an interesting context:

[20:21] <VCI-Bob> "'In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem," (Joel 3:1 NIV)

[20:22] <VCI-Bob> see what God is saying is one of His primary intentions for these events?

[20:22] <Kathy-VHL> Bob it was Joes 3 2 sorry I lost it lol

[20:22] <hands-VHL> 6ok

[20:23] <VCI-Bob> much is written about the "restoration" of Israel in the Scriptures

[20:23] <VCI-Bob> "'In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem," (Joel 3:1 NIV)

[20:23] <VCI-Bob> "I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land." (Joel 3:2 NIV)

[20:23] <VCI-Bob> OK - folks, I want to hear what YOU say about these verses :)

[20:23] <skip-VHL> 4who are the Sabeans?

[20:23] <hands-VHL> 6 2:28-32 is also very important:-)

[20:24] <VCI-Bob> let's stay on track - it'll work better if we all look at the same verses at the same time :)

[20:24] <Kathy-VHL> well Bob it seems from reading the entire chapter that this gathering is different from the gathering the nations against Israel

[20:24] <called_out-VHL> 10The Lord is saying that he will bring judgement on all the nations that

[20:24] <called_out-VHL> 10scatered his people.

[20:24] <hands-VHL> 6God's about to have court

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[20:25] <Kathy-VHL> for he says it is a valey of decision

[20:25] <light2-VHL> Sabean is modern day Yemen skip

[20:25] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Babylon, Egypt, or any other nations who took Israel into exile are in trouble.

[20:25] <Gran-VHL> 5:)

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> good observations :)

[20:25] <Gran-VHL> 5shalom to you all

[20:25] <skip-VHL> 4HI GRAN

[20:25] <hands-VHL> 6hello Gran!

[20:25] <called_out-VHL> 10Oh, Hi Gran :)

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Gran!

[20:25] <Kathy-VHL> hi Gran

[20:25] <Gran-VHL> 5we just got out of Ladies for the Lord to good to stop

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> :)

[20:25] <light2-VHL> It also sounds like God has been saving up judgement against these nations for along time

[20:25] <VCI-Bob> that's right, Light

[20:25] <Bezalel-VHL> 2:-), Gran.

[20:26] <light2-VHL> That ought to be a lesson for us all, "gone" does not always mean forgotten in Gods mind

[20:26] <hands-VHL> 6amen

[20:26] <Gran-VHL> 5yes light in Ezk 38 God is saying how much he hates the evil nations

[20:27] <skip-VHL> 4I remember as a child I would rather get 4 little spankings than 1 BIG one so the nations better pack theur pants with Charmin

[20:27] <light2-VHL> we are in Joel chap. 3 Gran

[20:27] <Gran-VHL> 5and that after He brings them down on Isreal how He will destroy them all

[20:27] <Gran-VHL> 5oh thanks light will open my sword

[20:28] <hands-VHL> 6the only things forgotten and thrown in the sea are those cover by the blood of the Lamb!

[20:28] <called_out-VHL> 10Your two edged sword Gran :)

[20:28] <light2-VHL> Bob ,when in history were the Jews sold to the greeks, do you know?

[20:28] <VCI-Bob> "I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land." (Joel 3:2 NIV)

[20:28] <VCI-Bob> "They cast lots for my people and traded boys for prostitutes; they sold girls for wine that they might drink." (Joel 3:3 NIV)

[20:28] <light2-VHL> Amen hands

[20:28] <Gran-VHL> 5yes called

[20:29] <VCI-Bob> the "greeks" light, I think, would be speaking of Europeans in general....

[20:29] <hands-VHL> 6sound like today in places

[20:29] <Kathy-VHL> and all these things have been done to the Jews

[20:29] <hands-VHL> 6too many places

[20:29] <light2-VHL> Yes thats probably true since Greek culture heavily influenced the Romans

[20:29] <VCI-Bob> and anyone familiar with the history of the Jews in Europe knows that the Holocaust was a continuations of centuries of pogroms, oppression, and banishment

[20:30] <Kathy-VHL> this shows that God did not forget His people He remembers what has been done to them

[20:30] <skip-VHL> 4yeah in all the countries of europe

[20:30] <VCI-Bob> "'Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done." (Joel 3:4 NIV)

[20:30] <VCI-Bob> "For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples." (Joel 3:5 NIV)

[20:30] <VCI-Bob> "You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, that you might send them far from their homeland." (Joel 3:6 NIV)

[20:31] <VCI-Bob> I think verse 4 is interesting because of the dialogue the Lord is having with those regions......

[20:31] <VCI-Bob> He's saying "are you trying to pay me back for something" I have done?

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[20:32] <VCI-Bob> like they are purposefully putting themselves in direct opposition to the Lord

[20:32] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I was thinking about the hatred the Arabs hold against Israel. Israel has never given them an excuse for the utter hatred.

[20:32] <Gran-VHL> 5Bez all they have to do is to exist

[20:32] <VCI-Bob> good point, Bez

[20:33] <Gran-VHL> 5for that hatred

[20:33] <Kathy-VHL> Yes like how they are shaking their fists in Gods face now

[20:33] <Bezalel-VHL> 2My conclusion was that it proves Scripture...

[20:33] <Kathy-VHL> their god causes them to hate them

[20:33] <Gran-VHL> 5these verses say so much the same thing as what i was readiing in Ezk 38 and 39

[20:33] <Gran-VHL> 5interesting

[20:33] <VCI-Bob> yes, Gran? like what?

[20:34] <Gran-VHL> 5well to summarize 38 speaks of when God hiself will bring Gog and

[20:34] <Gran-VHL> 5many other nations down on israel

[20:34] <Gran-VHL> 5after they are back home in thier land

[20:34] <hands-VHL> 6have to go will try to come back later, see ya

[20:34] <Kathy-VHL> I think as we get closer in thime the prophecies come together more and more and say the same thing in many places

[20:35] <Gran-VHL> 5and that he will destroy those nations

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[20:35] <Gran-VHL> 5god bless hands

[20:35] <VCI-Bob> Yes, Kathy

[20:35] <Kathy-VHL> It doesnt sound like the Gog MaGog war to me it sounds like a

[20:35] <light2-VHL> today on the news it showed how the palestinians are even arming little girls with weapons against Israel

[20:35] <VCI-Bob> "'See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done." (Joel 3:7 NIV)

[20:35] <VCI-Bob> "I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away.' The LORD has spoken." (Joel 3:8 NIV)

[20:35] <Gran-VHL> 5in 39 God tells us that because of Isreals sin against God

[20:36] <Kathy-VHL> punishment of the nations before their total destruction

[20:36] <Gran-VHL> 5he sent them into exile

[20:36] <Gran-VHL> 5and gave them over to be killed

[20:36] <Kathy-VHL> kind of like God is going to show Israel that He has heard their prayers

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[20:36] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Dotk

[20:36] <Gran-VHL> 5but He will again restore them back into their land

[20:36] <Dotk-VHL> Hello everyone

[20:36] <Gran-VHL> 5He will bring them from every nation

[20:37] <VCI-Bob> "Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack." (Joel 3:9 NIV)

[20:37] <VCI-Bob> "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, 'I am strong!'" (Joel 3:10 NIV)

[20:37] <VCI-Bob> "Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O LORD!" (Joel 3:11 NIV)

[20:37] <Gran-VHL> 5dot shalom

[20:37] <skip-VHL> 4HI DOTK

[20:37] <Gran-VHL> 5someone on forum said he does not believe that the lost tribles will ever return

[20:37] <Gran-VHL> 5but God has promised that He will bring them back

[20:38] <skip-VHL> 4and so HE has amen

[20:38] <light2-VHL> God is calling the Nations to war

[20:38] <VCI-Bob> In verse 9, God is challenging the nations

[20:38] <VCI-Bob> right, Light

[20:38] <Gran-VHL> 5and when the time is ready all of them will come home to their land

[20:39] <VCI-Bob> verse 10 is an interesting twist to the famous verses in Isaiah and Micah

[20:39] <VCI-Bob> "He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4 NIV)

[20:39] <VCI-Bob> That speaks of the aftermath, when the Messiah Jesus rules from Zion

[20:40] <VCI-Bob> but Joel 3:10 has to happen first

[20:40] <skip-VHL> 4first war then reward

[20:41] <Gran-VHL> 5yes Bob thas right

[20:41] <light2-VHL> this give a different meaning to wipeout

[20:41] <Gran-VHL> 5if these nations were to repent then they will be forgiven but I don't see them doing that

[20:41] <VCI-Bob> So, God is going to assemble the armies of the nations against Him

[20:42] <Gran-VHL> 5yes HE sure is

[20:42] <VCI-Bob> (see Isaiah 34 also about this)

[20:42] <VCI-Bob> "Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O LORD!" (Joel 3:11 NIV)

[20:42] <VCI-Bob> the last part of verse 11 is you and me :)

[20:42] <Gran-VHL> 5oh yes I see

[20:43] <VCI-Bob> "'Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (Joel 3:12 NIV)

[20:43] <skip-VHL> 4is the valley of decision the same as the valley of Mergiddo?

[20:43] <Gran-VHL> 5too bad these evil nations do not read these words

[20:43] <Gran-VHL> 5as HE tell of how HE will destroy all of them

[20:43] <VCI-Bob> Skip, in general, yes, geographically, perhaps not... Megiddo is further north, near Mount Carmel and the valley of Jezreel....

[20:44] <VCI-Bob> but this is speaking more of a battle near Jerusalem

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[20:44] <Kathy-VHL> Bob this seems to me to be God showing Israel His power for them

[20:45] <VCI-Bob> so the enemy forces may gather in the valley of Jezreel (where many historical battles have occurred because of the geography) and meet their demise as the move to Jerusalem

[20:45] <skip-VHL> 4so there will be 2 battles?

[20:45] <VCI-Bob> Skip, hard to say, I don't think so - what we see are glimpses from the various prophets, and the challenge is piecing them together

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[20:46] <Kathy-VHL> somewhere in here we have to have Gods spirit poured out on the Jew

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[20:46] <Kathy-VHL> so that they understand God does their fighting for them supernaturally

[20:46] <VCI-Bob> for example, it says the Lord will come from "Bozrah, Edom Teman" in other prophecies

[20:46] <skip-VHL> 4thanks BOB ,sorry to be so full of ???s tonight :-)

[20:46] <VCI-Bob> right, Kathy :)

[20:46] <VCI-Bob> :)

[20:47] <VCI-Bob> I wish we could all look at a map together.......

[20:47] <VCI-Bob> Edom is in Jordan, Petra is there...

[20:47] <light2-VHL> today I read in Jeremiah that the sound of the destruction of the area is going to go clear to the Red Sea

[20:48] <VCI-Bob> so some have theorized that perhaps.........

[20:48] <skip-VHL> 4he is already pouring his spirit out hence the MESSIANIC JEWISH

[20:48] <Kathy-VHL> It kind of sounds to me like God is playing with the nations that would come against Him and will show His strength to Israel

[20:48] <Kathy-VHL> by what He does to them

[20:48] <VCI-Bob> Jesus will return, meet the Jews who may be protected in Petra, and then move north to fight for Jerusalem

[20:49] <VCI-Bob> against the forces assembled in the Megiddo region that are moving south to attack Jerusalem

[20:49] <skip-VHL> 4so you believe the remnant will flee to Petra?

[20:49] <VCI-Bob> this is highly speculative, but is supported by various prophecies

[20:49] <light2-VHL> Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them.The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea.Jer 49:20-21

[20:50] <VCI-Bob> skip, it may be, yes

[20:50] <VCI-Bob> I cannot say that with any certainty

[20:50] <skip-VHL> 4I think so too BOB

[20:50] <VCI-Bob> should I post some of the verses to support what I was saying?

[20:50] <called_out-VHL246> 10please do

[20:51] <VCI-Bob> "Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save."" (Isaiah 63:1 NIV)

[20:51] <VCI-Bob> "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth." (Habakkuk 3:3 NIV)

[20:51] <VCI-Bob> "His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden." (Habakkuk 3:4 NIV)

[20:51] <VCI-Bob> Teman, Bozrah, Edom, Paran - all in the same region

[20:51] <light2-VHL> Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

[20:52] <VCI-Bob> "The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat-- the blood of lambs and goats, fat from the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom." (Isaiah 34:6 NIV)

[20:52] <light2-VHL> funny thats the next verse after the noise from the red sea

[20:52] <light2-VHL> Jer 49:22..............seems to fit right in huh

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[20:53] <VCI-Bob> "Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south," (Zechariah 9:14 NIV)

[20:53] <skip-VHL> 4hi FERRELL

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[20:53] <Gran-VHL> 5farrell god bless you

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[20:53] <VCI-Bob> Hello, newcomers :)

[20:53] <Gran-VHL> 5clint shalom

[20:53] <called_out-VHL246> 10Ferrell, Clint :)

[20:53] <farrell-VHL> 2Hi brothers and sisters, this is very interesting - I'm trying to catch up. Shalom dear Gran, skip, :)

[20:53] <skip-VHL> 4hi clint

[20:53] <light2-VHL> It sounds like all the prophets are talking of the same incident

[20:54] <Clint-VHL> Hello Guys, Shalom

[20:54] <Kathy-VHL> lets go back Bob to the time when God calls thes nations to the valley of Jehosaphat

[20:54] <Gran-VHL> 5yes light it does

[20:54] <VCI-Bob> yes, Kathy?

[20:54] <farrell-VHL> 2Hi called, Clint:)

[20:55] <called_out-VHL246> 10:)

[20:55] <Kathy-VHL> when in this era of time do you think the Rapture occurs

[20:55] <Clint-VHL> Hi. :-)

[20:55] <VCI-Bob> For the newcomers, I'm laid up in bed with a back injury from racquetball

[20:55] <Kathy-VHL> because we have to come with Christ

[20:55] <VCI-Bob> and the muscle relaxant drugs are making it hard to remember stuff :)

[20:55] <farrell-VHL> 2Bob :( I'm sorry.

[20:56] <Gran-VHL> 5oh Bob we will have to pray for you

[20:56] <VCI-Bob> thanks :)

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[20:56] <Gran-VHL> 5to take more care when playing big boy games.:)

[20:56] <VCI-Bob> yeah :)

[20:56] <Gran-VHL> 5my grandson did that playing football

[20:56] <VCI-Bob> it's just a pulled muscle or muscle spasm, and it's getting a little better

[20:56] <Gran-VHL> 5lost three days work

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[20:57] <VCI-Bob> I could barely move this morning, but at least I can get out of bed a little now

[20:57] <VCI-Bob> ok - back to prophecy - what were you saying Kathy?

[20:58] <VCI-Bob> for the newcomers, we have been looking at Joel 3

[20:58] <Kathy-VHL> if we go back to when God calls the nations to the valley of Josehophat where in time does the rapture occur we have to come with Christ

[20:59] <VCI-Bob> in my understanding of it, the post trib scenario, when Jesus returns to do battle, we will be caught up in the air with Him, and fall into rank :)

[21:00] <Bezalel-VHL> 2After the Wrath of God?

[21:00] <Kathy-VHL> and is it the entire world against Israel or is the entire world against Israel and believers

[21:00] <Kathy-VHL> What are the believers doing all this time

[21:00] <skip-VHL> 4I dont care if I am in lowest ranks as long as I am called

[21:00] <Gran-VHL> 5Bob do you see this in Joel as the same time line as Ezk 38 and 39

[21:01] <Gran-VHL> 5yes skip me too

[21:01] <VCI-Bob> It's the entire world against the King and His followers, with Israel being what is contended for, that's my understanding

[21:01] <Gran-VHL> 5Den shalom didnt see you

[21:02] <farrell-VHL149> 2Is this when Israel is protected at Petra then?

[21:02] <Kathy-VHL> ok are all the believers in Israel with the Jews

[21:02] <VCI-Bob> Gran, I tend to see it that way, I know many see the Ezekiel prophecy as happening before this

[21:02] <Gran-VHL> 5well it can be kindof confusing

[21:02] <VCI-Bob> no, Kathy, we are caught up to meet Him in the air, like it says in 1 Thess 4

[21:02] <VCI-Bob> and 1 Cor 15

[21:02] <Clint-VHL> Bob, using that post trib view of things where does the traditional wedding week fall into place. If we immediately follow Jesus back to earth is the wedding consumated in battle?

[21:03] <Gran-VHL> 5because in Ezk it talks about it all happening after God brings all of Isreal and Judah home to the land

[21:03] <VCI-Bob> the marriage supper takes place on earth, on Mt Zion, Clint, after Jesus returns

[21:03] <Den-VHL> Thank you Gran

[21:03] <Kathy-VHL> what about the Beama Seat Bob when is that

[21:03] <Gran-VHL> 5and then when He brings Gog and all of the nations down against them He will destroy these evil nations

[21:04] <farrell-VHL149> 2Bob, Ezk. 39 seems to be when God brings Gog from the North against Israel. Is this before the events in Joel?

[21:04] <Clint-VHL> The marriage supper is different than the marriage. At least that is the way I understand it.

[21:04] <VCI-Bob> when King Jesus rules on His throne from Zion, Kathy

[21:05] <Kathy-VHL> thats the Great White Throne Judgement

[21:05] <Gran-VHL> 5Kathy I have not heard of that before what do you mean

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> ""When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory." (Matthew 25:31 NIV)

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." (Matthew 25:32 NIV)

[21:05] <VCI-Bob> no, Kathy, that's later

[21:05] <Kathy-VHL> The Judgement Seat of Christ where the Believers will be judged and rewarded

[21:06] <VCI-Bob> ok, Kathy, but the pre-trib view assumes that will happen in heaven during the trib - it does not say that anywhere in the Bible

[21:06] <Clint-VHL> Using the traditional jewish wedding as practised in Jesus' time, after the groom to be caught away the bride they went to the fathers house for the soncumation.

[21:06] <Gran-VHL> 5Bob I would like to get all this straignt and in order<g>

[21:06] <VCI-Bob> but it DOES say very specifically when and where the marriage supper takes place - not in heaven during the trib, but on earth after Jesus is crowned

[21:07] <Kathy-VHL> when are we going to live in the Fathers house in mansions

[21:07] <Gran-VHL> 5where does it say that Bob

[21:07] <VCI-Bob> Isa 25 and Rev 19, Gran

[21:07] <Clint-VHL> consumation, sorry:->

[21:07] <light2-VHL> Kathy the word masions means dwelling places

[21:08] <Kathy-VHL> I know

[21:08] <Gran-VHL> 5OK Bob thanks

[21:08] <light2-VHL> :-)

[21:08] <Kathy-VHL> they are dwelling places that Christ has prepared for us

[21:08] <Clint-VHL> Yes but the wedding supper is after the wedding takes place and the couple has a seven day time together.

[21:08] <VCI-Bob> Kathy, we will be ruling with Him here on earth during the thousand years

[21:08] <VCI-Bob> we will not be in heaven then

[21:09] <Kathy-VHL> I know but we have to live in those Heavenly Mansions sometime

[21:09] <Clint-VHL> The places that the Lord promised that he waw preparing for us is the wedding chambers.

[21:09] <VCI-Bob> Clint, thats a nice picture, but does the Bible say that?

[21:09] <Gran-VHL> 5Bob can you give us a chronalogical way to view these events

[21:09] <VCI-Bob> I doubt it, Gran :)

[21:10] <Gran-VHL> 5oh dear I get so confused sometimes

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> me too :)

[21:10] <Kathy-VHL> Bob I am just trying to fit into my understanding what you are saying I dont want to apear to agrue ok

[21:10] <Gran-VHL> 5in order to get at the truth

[21:10] <skip-VHL> 4your honest anyway bob lol

[21:10] <VCI-Bob> I know, Kathy :)

[21:10] <Kathy-VHL> ok good

[21:11] <Gran-VHL> 5Bob it seems that we all agree that we get confused LOL

[21:11] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Bob, do you see the Trumpets and Bowls being brought against man after this Battle?

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> yup :)

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> no, Bez, I think that is before

[21:11] <Clint-VHL> Yes is does especially if you take into consideration the time and customs that the Lord and the disciplesw were familiar with

[21:11] <VCI-Bob> the battle is the final scene when Jesus returns

[21:12] <VCI-Bob> I mean, certainly, some of them are in conjunction with the battle, Bez

[21:12] <Bezalel-VHL> 2So, who will be left to occupy the world during the millenium?

[21:12] <Kathy-VHL> Well I still want to know when I get to live in my mansion

[21:12] <Gran-VHL> 5Kathy :)

[21:12] <VCI-Bob> Bez, "the survivors among the nations"

[21:12] <called_out-VHL246> 10after the 1000 years Kathy

[21:12] <Clint-VHL> When your husband comes to get you Kathy. He won't forget, promise.

[21:13] <Kathy-VHL> after that is a new heaven and new earth

[21:13] <called_out-VHL246> 10After Jesus sends the old devil to hell, we go to heaven.

[21:13] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Not all peoples of the nations will be destroyed during the Wrath and the Battle?

[21:13] <VCI-Bob> "Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." (Zechariah 14:16 NIV)

[21:13] <farrell-VHL149> 2This is so very interesting. All I have ever heard is the pre-trib view so I am trying to understand a different perspective too.

[21:13] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Thanks, Bob:-)

[21:13] <VCI-Bob> sure, Bez :)

[21:14] <Kathy-VHL> Yes the different viewpoint prompts so many questions

[21:14] <Gran-VHL> 5yes Kathy for sure

[21:14] <Bezalel-VHL> 2The timing is not extremely different between Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath.

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[21:14] <Bezalel-VHL> 2For the rapture, that is.

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> true

[21:14] <Chuck_L-VHL> evening all

[21:14] <VCI-Bob> Hello, Chuck!

[21:14] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi Chuck.

[21:15] <Clint-VHL> Isn't this a sort of uncomfortable format to use to discuss a topic as broad a pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib?

[21:15] <called_out-VHL246> 10Hi Chuck

[21:15] <Chuck_L-VHL> Finally made it to a Thursday night discussion! <heh>

[21:15] <Kathy-VHL> if we go right into battle when we are caught up then I sure hate to see all those wedding dresses

[21:15] <VCI-Bob> I'm going to take a short break - please continue your conversation :)

[21:15] <Clint-VHL> You are right Kathy.

[21:15] <farrell-VHL149> 2What is the view I am hearing about called "preterism"? what does that mean?

[21:15] <Gran-VHL> 5shalom chuck

[21:15] <Kathy-VHL> we are to be adorned as a bride

[21:16] <VCI-Bob> Perterism, Farrell, says that almost all prophecy in the Bible is already fulfilled

[21:16] <Kathy-VHL> looks like if we are going to do battle He would have adorned us in battle gear

[21:16] <Clint-VHL> As a guy, I never thought I would be looking forward to being a bride.:-)

[21:16] <skip-VHL> 4diferent people have different views of PRETTY DRESSESS

[21:16] <VCI-Bob> we will be, Kathy!

[21:16] <Gran-VHL> 5skip :)

[21:17] <farrell-VHL149> 2Is that connected with the idea that the church has replaced Israel?

[21:17] <Kathy-VHL> lol and I didnt think I would be carring a sword either Clint lol

[21:17] <Clint-VHL> Preterism means throw the bible in the corner it's not worth reading in depth.

[21:17] <Gran-VHL> 5Kathy I won't mind carrieing a sword

[21:17] <Kathy-VHL> But Bob he says we are adorned as a bride

[21:17] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I'm under the impression we won't be doing much of the fighting, though:-)

[21:18] <VCI-Bob> but not in that context, Kathy

[21:18] <Kathy-VHL> right we mostly watch I think

[21:18] <Clint-VHL> Won't we be grand?

[21:18] <skip-VHL> 4I carry a gun already so a sword wont be too bad

[21:18] <Gran-VHL> 5yes and i thought that when Jesus comes on the scene He will win right then

[21:18] <Kathy-VHL> our sword will be the Word I think

[21:18] <Chuck_L-VHL> What's the topic?

[21:18] <VCI-Bob> We started in Joel 3, Chuck

[21:18] <Clint-VHL> Bob please explain "Not in that context"

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> speaking of the Lord gathering the nations

[21:19] <Kathy-VHL> He has to take us from Petra to Medigo

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> to fight against them

[21:19] <Chuck_L-VHL> Thanks Bob.

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> ok, Kathy, you cite the verse you were referring to :)

[21:19] <Kathy-VHL> lol When Bob

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> "I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." (Revelation 21:2 NIV)

[21:19] <VCI-Bob> is that it?

[21:20] <Clint-VHL> Understood Bob and you are right.

[21:20] <VCI-Bob> that's AFTER the thousand year reign right?

[21:20] <Kathy-VHL> no I think it is somewhere where we have our lamps ready

[21:20] <farrell-VHL149> 2I am very confused

[21:20] <Clint-VHL> Right>

[21:20] <Gran-VHL> 5Bob somewhere it says that we will be adorned in garments while as snow where is that?

[21:20] <Kathy-VHL> waiting for the Bridegroom to come

[21:20] <Chuck_L-VHL> Matthew 25 Kathy

[21:20] <VCI-Bob> "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Revelation 19:14 NIV)

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[21:21] <Chuck_L-VHL> I think you're referring to the parable of the Ten Virgins.

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> Armies don't wear wedding dresses, they wear battle garb :)

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war." (Revelation 19:11 NIV)

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself." (Revelation 19:12 NIV)

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> "He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God." (Revelation 19:13 NIV)

[21:21] <VCI-Bob> "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (Revelation 19:14 NIV)

[21:21] <Gran-VHL> 5Hummm while battle gear Bob

[21:21] <Kathy-VHL> right Bob so when do we change clothes

[21:21] <Gran-VHL> 5white that is

[21:22] <VCI-Bob> I guess we change for supper :)

[21:22] <Gran-VHL> 5Kathy :)

[21:22] <Chuck_L-VHL> lol

[21:22] <Gran-VHL> 5chuck sometimes we get confused and sometimes we agree to disagree:0

[21:22] <Gran-VHL> 5:)

[21:23] <Bezalel-VHL> 2ROFL

[21:23] <skip-VHL> 4amen GRAN

[21:23] <Chuck_L-VHL> I fully understand.

[21:23] <Gran-VHL> 5and Bob never gets confused :)

[21:23] <Kathy-VHL> I didnt think they ate supper after the wedding I thought it was before\

[21:23] <VCI-Bob> Folks, I don't want to knock anyone's "system" but remember that we need to start with the Bible, - not with a preconceived neat little system that doesn't fit with the Scriptures :)

[21:23] <VCI-Bob> sure I do, Gran, all the time :)

[21:23] <farrell-VHL149> 2We can do that Gran because we love each other in Christ:)

[21:24] <VCI-Bob> amen, Farrell :)

[21:24] <Clint-VHL> Revelation 19 speaks about the bride prior to the coming of the Lord on his white horse.

[21:24] <Kathy-VHL> yes Bob I agree the Bible only

[21:24] <Gran-VHL> 5Bob seriously I thought that the marrage supper was supposed to be after the model of the Hebrew weddings

[21:24] <VCI-Bob> yes, Clint, exactly....

[21:24] <VCI-Bob> in Rev 19, JUST BEFORE He returns on the white horse, there are the marriage supper invitations

[21:25] <Clint-VHL> Then the bride must have been taken from her former house to the house of the groom .

[21:25] <VCI-Bob> so, how could it have been happening in heaven before that?

[21:25] <Gran-VHL> 5bob the scripture you quoted in Rev speaks of the bride coming down from heaven. HUMMMMM

[21:25] <VCI-Bob> and Isaiah 25 tells us it takes place on the earth

[21:25] <Clint-VHL> What happening?

[21:25] <VCI-Bob> the marriage supper

[21:25] <VCI-Bob> the wedding feast

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[21:26] <VCI-Bob> It does not happen in heaven during the seven years as the pretrib system says

[21:26] <Clint-VHL> The mnarriage supper as I understand it is the slaughter at the final battle.

[21:26] <Gran-VHL> 5but that verse sounds like the new Jerusalem not the church

[21:26] <Chuck_L-VHL> Amen Bob!

[21:26] <VCI-Bob> no, that's the "great supper of God" - 2 different things

[21:27] <Clint-VHL> It would do everyone very much good to study the customs of the Jews and the wedding goings on.

[21:27] <Gran-VHL> 5yes clint that supper will be for the birds

[21:27] <VCI-Bob> :)

[21:27] <Chuck_L-VHL> <heh>

[21:27] <Gran-VHL> 5to get at the dead evil nations

[21:27] <Chuck_L-VHL> literally

[21:28] <Gran-VHL> 5didn't mean to make a funny sorry :)

[21:28] <Chuck_L-VHL> brb

[21:28] <skip-VHL> 4Does G_D expect me know the timetable or will i get graded on a curve on this one?

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[21:28] <VCI-Bob> a good pun, Gran :)

[21:28] <Gran-VHL> 5thanks Bob :)

[21:28] <VCI-Bob> skip, we'll get a quick briefing at battle time :)

[21:28] <Clint-VHL> Just because we are called to the supper doesn't mean we must have an appetite.:-)

[21:28] <Gran-VHL> 5skip you always come up with a good one

[21:29] <skip-VHL> 4Iam kind of slow so I hope HE lets me take notes

[21:29] <Gran-VHL> 5oh clint you are too much

[21:29] <VCI-Bob> :)

[21:29] <Clint-VHL> I hope he gives us all a lot of slack Skip.

[21:29] <VCI-Bob> ok, I'm going to take that break now... please continue

[21:29] <Gran-VHL> 5bob I am seriouly trying to make sense in all of this

[21:29] <Bezalel-VHL> 2We only need to have one lesson down.

[21:30] <VCI-Bob> me too, Gran :)

[21:30] <skip-VHL> 4LOVE THE LORD

[21:30] <Kathy-VHL> Yes me too Bob I really want to understand it and all scripture has to agree and it will if we search it out enough

[21:30] <farrell-VHL149> 2I want to understand too

[21:30] <Gran-VHL> 5yes Bez I know but after all these years to find out I am wrong hard to swollow

[21:30] <Clint-VHL> Washed in the "Blood of the Lamb." Is all I need to know and be.

[21:30] <Kathy-VHL> who are those people around the throne who are throwing their crowns

[21:30] <VCI-Bob> see, the problem is that people start with their "system" and then try to cram the Bible into it

[21:31] <farrell-VHL149> 2Well - We are that, Clint, and don't we praise God for it :)

[21:31] <Gran-VHL> 5hey kids I will be 70 in Jan don't have a lot of time left to figure it all out:)

[21:31] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Well, Gran, I came to faith so late in life, I don't have to drop any pre-conceived notions.

[21:31] <farrell-VHL149> 2Gran, we have ALL ETERNITY :):)

[21:31] <Kathy-VHL> the picture that John saw in Heaven shows lots of people there who are they

[21:31] <skip-VHL> 4GRAN you dont talk like an elder ;-)

[21:31] <Gran-VHL> 5I have heard both sides but do need to get it right so that i can pass it along to others

[21:32] <Gran-VHL> 5my body does not keep up with the brain dear

[21:32] <farrell-VHL149> 2Me too, Bez, I was a slow poke and I can't get enough fast enough :)

[21:32] <skip-VHL> 4lol

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[21:32] <Gran-VHL> 5I do not like confusion

[21:33] <Gran-VHL> 5so now all of a sudden i do need to know what to believe

[21:33] <Gran-VHL> 5so how can I change my positon if I don't know what to base it on

[21:33] <VCI-Bob> "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12 NASB)

[21:33] <Kathy-VHL> well lets start on what we all agree on that is a good place to begin

[21:33] <Bezalel-VHL> 2If we listened to all the critics and naysayers, there would be NO Christians.

[21:33] <Clint-VHL> Bob I am not one hundred percent pre-trib, but I am rather one who is trying to understand the truth. You are right it does seem that everyone starts with a conviction first. Wrong approach. Sorry if I seem so dogmatic. Caracter fault I guess.:-)

[21:33] <skip-VHL> 4me either GRAN but I dont even try to claim to be smart enough to understand even when it is explained to me

[21:34] <VCI-Bob> :) Clint we all tend to cling strongly to our pre-conceived ideas :)

[21:34] <Gran-VHL> 5bob I am open to the truth I just do not know what the truth is

[21:34] <Clint-VHL> I'm trying to seperate the pre-conceived ones from the truth of God's word.

[21:34] <VCI-Bob> Gran, we are in agreement on the important things

[21:35] <Gran-VHL> 5so how can i change what have always been taught????

[21:35] <Kathy-VHL> Well I try to be open minded about the mid trip view but when I learn more about the end the more unlikley it seems

[21:35] <VCI-Bob> that Jesus is coming soon, and they will see Him

[21:35] <VCI-Bob> and be glorified with Him

[21:35] <Clint-VHL> I wouldn't change just for the sake of change, Gran.

[21:35] <Gran-VHL> 5bob yes of course that is not a problem but I need to know where what is where so I can pick up what you are trying to tell us

[21:36] <Clint-VHL> I would rather study first then, if necessary, change.

[21:36] <farrell-VHL149> 2I often refer to 1 Cor. 13:12, Bob because it took me 46 years to come to terms with the fact that I would never be able to understand and explain the Trinity nature of God.

[21:36] <skip-VHL> 4GRAN it is wonderful to know we are never to "old" to learn something

[21:36] <Kathy-VHL> To me it is like understanding the trinity you just understand it

[21:36] <VCI-Bob> Folks who believe pre-trib have to admit there is nothing that explicitly says or indicates the rapture is before the trib - it's all extropolation, saying "it has to be this way because......"

[21:37] <Gran-VHL> 5well the Trinity I do not have trouble explaining but this I just don't know

[21:37] <Kathy-VHL> it doesnt say that about the

[21:37] <Kathy-VHL> Trinity either Bob

[21:37] <Clint-VHL> Thank the Lord, there are some things over my head.:-) The Trinity is one of them. I just know that Jesus embodies it all.

[21:38] <VCI-Bob> sure it does, Kathy - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - that's pretty explicit

[21:38] <skip-VHL> 4G_DS thoughts are above mans thoughts and always will be

[21:38] <Gran-VHL> 5I found this little book at a yard sale. It is the unbelieveable pre-trib origiin

[21:38] <farrell-VHL149> 2Isn't God Great?? I am so very thankful that He revealed Himself to us in Jesus Christ!! Praise His Name!

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[21:38] <Gran-VHL> 5i have not gotten through it yet tho

[21:38] <VCI-Bob> Amen, Farrell

[21:38] <Clint-VHL> I don't say that it has to be that way Bob. Aren't you also sort of dogmatic about your stance?

[21:38] <skip-VHL> 4what is it called GRAN

[21:39] <Gran-VHL> 5printed in 1973 by Dave Mac Pherson

[21:39] <incense11> hello

[21:39] <Gran-VHL> 5it is the unbelieveable pre trib origiin

[21:39] <Gran-VHL> 5out of print most likely

[21:39] <Bezalel-VHL> 2AMEN FARRELL!

[21:40] <skip-VHL> 4meaning it tells when the pre trib idea started?

[21:40] <VCI-Bob> no, Clint, I was taught pre-trib in church and Bible college, and am open to hearing what the Bible says - if anyone can make a good case for it, I'm more than willing to hear

[21:40] <incense11> Hi Bob

[21:40] <VCI-Bob> Hi, incense! :)

[21:40] <incense11> I was taught that way, beginning to believe otherwise

[21:41] <Gran-VHL> 5the earliest recorded of this pre theory was in 1830

[21:41] <incense11> but other day someting came to mind...

[21:41] <Gran-VHL> 5incense shalom

[21:41] <incense11> hey gran

[21:41] <VCI-Bob> that's right, Gran - the early believers saw the rapture and second coming as one event

[21:41] <incense11> doesn't the two witnesses come in middle or end

[21:41] <Clint-VHL> I'm not saying that you are Bob, but it sort of comes across that way on this end. Everyone who is pre-trib is somehow deficient in their understanding of the bible.

[21:42] <VCI-Bob> I'm sorry it comes across that way, Clint

[21:42] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I just finished The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Rosenthal. He came from the same background as you, Bob, and left the Friends of Israel because he couldn't support Pre-Trib any longer.

[21:42] <Clint-VHL> I too was raised up pre-trib, and was taught the same in school. It's just now that I find myself wondering.

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[21:42] <Kathy-VHL> why would it be called the Blessed hope if it were not somthing we would be taken away from

[21:42] <farrell-VHL149> 2Shalom incense:)

[21:42] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Tuesday!

[21:42] <incense11> if 2 witnesses come in middle or end there has to be a beginning.. or does it just say they come

[21:43] <incense11> shalom farrell

[21:43] <Gran-VHL> 5A young woman had a vison or whatever and told of a pretrib rapture

[21:43] <VCI-Bob> not sure what you mean, incense?

[21:43] <Gran-VHL> 5but there was an earlier time that it came up

[21:43] <incense11> what does bible say about when the 2 witnesses come

[21:43] <Clint-VHL> I'm really not hostile Bob. I'm irish and get a little involved when I speak.:->

[21:43] <VCI-Bob> :)

[21:43] <Gran-VHL> 5not scriptural tho

[21:44] <incense11> how is gran

[21:44] <Gran-VHL> 5I guess I will have to read this book through

[21:44] <VCI-Bob> Pre-trib is based on a system "dispensationalism" - a certain way of interpreting the Bible - and then attempts to make the Bible fit into that system

[21:44] <incense11> we all should over and over gran

[21:44] <Gran-VHL> 5pretty good dear once i can get rid of headaches

[21:44] <VCI-Bob> now, I agree with some aspects of dispensationalism....

[21:45] <incense11> ouch....I had bad one yesterday , think

[21:45] <Gran-VHL> 5well this book was printed in 1973 and happened across it

[21:45] <Clint-VHL> From what perspective did you study to reach the point that you are at now, Bob?

[21:45] <VCI-Bob> but the problem appears when we make the Bible fit into our human based systems

[21:45] <VCI-Bob> what perspective? :) well, looking down at the words on the Bible? :)

[21:45] <Clint-VHL> Agreed.

[21:45] <incense11> listenig to Hebrew teachers and others besides just pastors has almost changed my mind

[21:46] <incense11> hey Bob, I found those scriptures

[21:46] <Clint-VHL> Yeah:-), but I don't think any of us come here with blank slates for minds.

[21:46] <VCI-Bob> yeah, incense? should wek look at them?

[21:46] <incense11> if you want.. would like your opinion

[21:47] <skip-VHL> 4and people do make the bible say what They want it to say instead of what G_D said

[21:47] <Tuesday-VHL> 3discussion pre-trib rapture or not?

[21:47] <Clint-VHL> Agreed Skip.

[21:47] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Yup, Tuesday.

[21:47] <VCI-Bob> Go for it, incense

[21:47] <incense11> Zec.10:7,8,10 and Hosea 11:10

[21:48] <Clint-VHL> I plan to stand with and for Jesus, pre-trib or not.

[21:48] <skip-VHL> 4myself included ... but working on correcting that bad habit :-)

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> ok, let's start with verse 6

[21:48] <incense11> way to go Clint

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> ""I will strengthen the house of Judah and save the house of Joseph. I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them." (Zechariah 10:6 NIV)

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> "The Ephraimites will become like mighty men, and their hearts will be glad as with wine. Their children will see it and be joyful; their hearts will rejoice in the LORD." (Zechariah 10:7 NIV)

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> "I will signal for them and gather them in. Surely I will redeem them; they will be as numerous as before." (Zechariah 10:8 NIV)

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> "Though I scatter them among the peoples, yet in distant lands they will remember me. They and their children will survive, and they will return." (Zechariah 10:9 NIV)

[21:48] <VCI-Bob> "I will bring them back from Egypt and gather them from Assyria. I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon, and there will not be room enough for them." (Zechariah 10:10 NIV)

[21:49] <Den-VHL> As my Pastor jokes, I am PAN TRIB: It will all pan out in the end.

[21:49] <skip-VHL> 4am using "I dont really know " more often now

[21:49] <VCI-Bob> ok, take a minute to read those, everyone

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[21:49] <Clint-VHL> Amen Den.

[21:49] <VCI-Bob> it's about the restoration and regathering of Israel, right?

[21:49] <Den-VHL> Good night all, it has been very .... enlightening. Shalom

[21:49] <Gran-VHL> 5yes

[21:49] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Tim - we are looking at Zech 10:6-10

[21:49] <Clint-VHL> Shalom Den.

[21:49] <incense11> yes

[21:49] <Gran-VHL> 5shalom Den and god bless

[21:49] <VCI-Bob> Thanks for joining us Den!!!

[21:49] <Gran-VHL> 5tim shalom

[21:50] <skip-VHL> 4bye DEN

[21:50] <Tuesday-VHL> 3Shalom Den

[21:50] <skip-VHL> 4HI TIM

[21:50] <Clint-VHL> Sounds like it to me Bob.

[21:50] <Tim-VHL> shalom

[21:50] <Bezalel-VHL> 2There won't be enough room when they return?

[21:50] <farrell-VHL149> 2Shalom Den

[21:50] <Gran-VHL> 5yes you mentioned that last week Bob

[21:51] <VCI-Bob> there will be some many that return, yes Bez

[21:51] <Gran-VHL> 5not enought room for them all who return

[21:51] <VCI-Bob> so many

[21:51] <Clint-VHL> Bez, remember the land is not as big as God gave.

[21:51] <VCI-Bob> right - it will be enlarged

[21:51] <VCI-Bob> and maybe very soon :)

[21:51] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Notice they will return to Lebanon, also?

[21:51] <Gran-VHL> 5yes and Clint remember that God will make room for them

[21:51] <VCI-Bob> Incense, did you have a specific question about these?

[21:51] <VCI-Bob> thats right Bez

[21:51] <incense11> strengthen the house of Judan and save the house of Joseph... who is Joseph (Ephraim)

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[21:51] <Gran-VHL> 5when He gives all the land back to them

[21:51] <Clint-VHL> :-)Yes

[21:52] <Bezalel-VHL> 2This is GOOD stuff!

[21:52] <incense11> I think this is Judah and Ephraim.. Jews and Gentiles

[21:52] <VCI-Bob> Incense, I think that just means that all of Israel, people from all of the tribes will return

[21:52] <VCI-Bob> no, Ephraim is not Gentiles?

[21:52] <Clint-VHL> Gold star Incense.

[21:52] <VCI-Bob> how do we get Ephraim being Gentiles?

[21:52] <Clint-VHL> Agreed.

[21:53] <incense11> and God will call the Gentiles home also... not just Jews

[21:53] <Clint-VHL> Have no idea.

[21:53] <Gran-VHL> 5yes and Bob in Jer. God says that Isreal and Judah will come hand in hand back to the land

[21:53] <incense11> you only have Jews or Gentiles right

[21:53] <Gran-VHL> 5from the north that is

[21:53] <VCI-Bob> Ephraim speaks of the northern 10 tribes, taken to Assyria, right?

[21:53] <incense11> wasn't Jews in the beginning... only Israel

[21:53] <VCI-Bob> and they never returned to the land as a group

[21:54] <Clint-VHL> Incense don't get the chosen people of God and the bride confused. They are different members of the same family.

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[21:54] <incense11> yes, but who are they...Gentiles

[21:54] <Gran-VHL> 5gentiles are all those not Jews

[21:54] <incense11> we are all the Bride...

[21:54] <VCI-Bob> how do you get Ephraim being Gentiles?

[21:54] <Geneva-VHL> Hi Better late than never

[21:54] <incense11> well ok who is Gentiles

[21:54] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Geneva!

[21:54] <Gran-VHL> 5Genva shalom

[21:55] <farrell-VHL149> 2Shalom Geneva:)

[21:55] <skip-VHL> 4is ISRAEL the Wife and gentiles the bride?

[21:55] <Geneva-VHL> I have been to a computer class

[21:55] <Clint-VHL> God's goodness to you Geneva.

[21:55] <Gran-VHL> 5oops Geneva

[21:55] <skip-VHL> 4Shalom Geneva

[21:55] <incense11> believers are the Bride rather Jew or Gentile

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[21:55] <VCI-Bob> "Jews" today speaks not just of people from Judah but of all of Jacobs physical descendants

[21:55] <Clint-VHL> That's the way that I understand it Skip.

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[21:55] <incense11> Jews have to be saved just as everybody else

[21:56] <VCI-Bob> right, incense, but I still don't see how "Ephraim" = Gentiles

[21:56] <Geneva-VHL> Back again

[21:56] <farrell-VHL149> 2I thought that those of us in the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor gentile, but we are the Bride of Christ?

[21:56] <VCI-Bob> it's saying that remants of all of the dispersed tribes will return

[21:56] <incense11> but Jews don't or can't say for sure whic tribe they are from..no one knows

[21:56] <Kathy-VHL> a bride becomes a wife

[21:56] <Clint-VHL> Only in the New Covenant Incense. The church has, I repeat, has not replaced Israel.

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[21:57] <Gran-VHL> 5yes clint

[21:57] <farrell-VHL149> 2That is what I understand, Clint, the church has not replaced Israel.

[21:57] <incense11> Clint.. of course not

[21:57] <Geneva-VHL52> Will this be on the board tomorrrow

[21:57] <Gran-VHL> 5yes for a week

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[21:58] <Clint-VHL> Jews who accept Christ are immediately in the bride. Those Jews who have not accepted Him are still the chosen people (God's adulterous wife).

[21:58] <Gran-VHL> 5incense some of them do know and are comeing home

[21:58] <skip-VHL> 4will there be sexes in heaven or JUST SPIRIT people

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[21:58] <incense11> I am not born Jew, but I am Israelite and Jew cos of my Savior, I am daughter of his and he's Jews

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[21:58] <farrell-VHL149> 2But, is the church or the Bride a separate entity from Israel? Do we have different roles to play in God's Plan?

[21:58] <VCI-Bob> man, talk about confusion

[21:58] <Gran-VHL> 5bob are you here??

[21:58] <VCI-Bob> I'm here

[21:58] <Geneva-VHL383> What has been the subject tonight

[21:58] <Gran-VHL> 5we need some answers

[21:58] <incense11> Bob....:-)) who me?

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[21:59] <VCI-Bob> :)

[21:59] <farrell-VHL149> 2I'm very confused Geneva :) But I'm trying

[21:59] <Clint-VHL> Yes they are different Ferrell.

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[21:59] <farrell-VHL149> 2to understand

[21:59] <incense11> in my heart I am... Jew don't have to accept that or anyone, but God does

[21:59] <Gran-VHL> 5we are all confused just about different things :)

[21:59] <VCI-Bob> we are not Jews, and we are not Israel, when we become believers

[21:59] <Clint-VHL> Incense you are right because you have been grafted in.

[21:59] <incense11> what... were not born Jew

[21:59] <Gran-VHL> 5we are adopted by God

[21:59] <VCI-Bob> I'm a gentile believer in the Jewish messiah

[22:00] <Geneva-VHL588> I cant' stay on line tonight

[22:00] <Gran-VHL> 5grafted into the vine of Jesus heritage arene't we Bob

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[22:00] <VCI-Bob> sorry, Geneva :(

[22:00] <farrell-VHL149> 2me too Bob :)

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[22:00] <VCI-Bob> sorry, Geneva :(

[22:00] <Tuesday-VHL> 3we are branches grafted onto the vine; we have been adopted by God

[22:00] <Clint-VHL> Yes Bob grafted into the true vine.

[22:00] <VCI-Bob> poor Geneva keeps getting bounced

[22:00] <incense11> bob... bible says not to call your self gentile after being saved, cos gentile is heathen.. and I"m not heathen

[22:00] <Gran-VHL> 5Geneva dear read all about it tomorrow:)

[22:01] <Gran-VHL> 5big headlines

[22:01] <Geneva-VHL491> I will

[22:01] <incense11> bye geneva

[22:01] <VCI-Bob> but we didn't become Jews, incense

[22:01] <Gran-VHL> 5read about the big confusion

[22:01] <Gran-VHL> 5:0

[22:01] <Gran-VHL> 5")

[22:01] <Gran-VHL> 5:)

[22:01] <Tuesday-VHL> 3I believe "gentile" simply refers to anyone not Jewish

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[22:01] <incense11> I did :-))

[22:01] <Gran-VHL> 5finally hit the right one

[22:01] <Clint-VHL> That's right Incense. But we do not become blood Jews.

[22:01] <Kathy-VHL> we are called christians after we believe

[22:02] <Kathy-VHL> Jews are called Mesainic Jews after they believe

[22:02] <incense11> NO, I never said born Jews,, I just became one

[22:02] <Tuesday-VHL> 3"gentile" means "dog"

[22:02] <incense11> well see, I am not dog...

[22:02] <Gran-VHL> 5oh juk Tuesday thats right I forgot

[22:02] <Clint-VHL> Man the church is coooonfusssed.

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[22:02] <Gran-VHL> 5yuk that is

[22:02] <VCI-Bob> OK - lets back up a little

[22:02] <incense11> sorry about the church.. but God leads me

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[22:03] <skip-VHL> 4hi rich

[22:03] <VCI-Bob> before Jesus came, the true God revealed Himself to one, nation, right?

[22:03] <incense11> ok Bob.. go for it

[22:03] <Gran-VHL> 5Jesus called the woman that wanted her daughter healed a dog because she was a gentile

[22:03] <farrell-VHL149> 2I am so glad God has - in His mercy - supplied us, His children, with this wonderful means of communication. VHL is a real blessing to us:)

[22:03] <VCI-Bob> He was known as the "God of Israel"

[22:03] <incense11> right

[22:03] <Clint-VHL> Bob find a regathering point, please.

[22:03] <Rich-VHL> 7Some are still here huh

[22:03] <VCI-Bob> and anyone that wanted to worship the true God had to renounce their old gods, right?

[22:03] <Bezalel-VHL> 2;-), Farrell

[22:04] <incense11> God of Abraham , Isaaic and Jacob

[22:04] <Gran-VHL> 5rich shalom

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> and cling to the God of Israel, effectively becoming a Jew, right?

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> agreed so far?

[22:04] <incense11> right

[22:04] <Clint-VHL> By circumcision.

[22:04] <skip-VHL> 4yep

[22:04] <Rich-VHL> 7hi Gran, Bob and everyone

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> But, after Jesus came, there was a big debate about this

[22:04] <incense11> gentiles had to give up their gods

[22:04] <VCI-Bob> among the apostles

[22:04] <Gran-VHL> 5god bless you rich

[22:04] <Gran-VHL> 5yes Bob

[22:05] <VCI-Bob> Did the non-Jewish people have to become Jewish to follow Jesus?

[22:05] <Gran-VHL> 5very big

[22:05] <VCI-Bob> and the answer from the Lord was NO

[22:05] <Rich-VHL> 7thank you Gran and may God bless you too

[22:05] <Gran-VHL> 5no

[22:05] <Clint-VHL> Absolutely not.

[22:05] <farrell-VHL149> 2Rich:)

[22:05] <Gran-VHL> 5rich :)

[22:05] <Tuesday-VHL> 3no

[22:05] <Rich-VHL> 7hi farrell

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> We have been joined to the God of Israel, but we didnt have to convert to Judaism to do it

[22:06] <Gran-VHL> 5ys

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> we only had to believe in the Jewish messiah

[22:06] <Gran-VHL> 5yes

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> Jesus

[22:06] <Clint-VHL> Agreed

[22:06] <Kathy-VHL> right

[22:06] <Gran-VHL> 5yes

[22:06] <incense11> I never converted Bob.. only picking up my Jewish roots

[22:06] <farrell-VHL149> 2ok

[22:06] <skip-VHL> 4we just have to believe HE is the son of G_D who died and rose for our sins and repent of sin

[22:06] <Tuesday-VHL> 3that's the ticket

[22:06] <VCI-Bob> and in a sense we have inherited the promises given to Abraham

[22:07] <VCI-Bob> and have been incorporated into the Kingdom

[22:07] <incense11> yes, we have...

[22:07] <Clint-VHL> By faith.

[22:07] <VCI-Bob> but we are not Israel

[22:07] <incense11> not in a sense ... WE HAVE

[22:07] <Gran-VHL> 5incense we became believers in Jesus

[22:07] <Gran-VHL> 5does not make us Jews

[22:07] <Clint-VHL> Thats right Romans 11, I beleive.

[22:07] <skip-VHL> 4yes cause HE adopted me,that makes me heir to all

[22:07] <Rich-VHL> 7remember what our Lord Jesus said about the work of God, that it is to believe in Him

[22:07] <Tuesday-VHL> 3Abraham believed, and it was counted to him as righteousness, before the circumscision

[22:08] <incense11> you don't have to be Jew... I want to and am

[22:08] <Gran-VHL> 5yes

[22:08] <Gran-VHL> 5Tuesday

[22:08] <incense11> I keep Sabbath and observe the Feast

[22:08] <Gran-VHL> 5spiritual Jews

[22:08] <incense11> God's feast by the way,, not Jewish feast... bibical

[22:08] <Gran-VHL> 5we are because we are grafted into the vine

[22:09] <incense11> sad to say only the Jews keep them

[22:09] <Clint-VHL> Incense were you saved by keeping the sabbath or by the faith in Jesus and what He did.

[22:09] <Tuesday-VHL> 3right, Gran

[22:09] <Rich-VHL> 7incense we will keep them when Jesus comes for us

[22:09] <skip-VHL> 4not by works but GRACE

[22:09] <incense11> Clint.... I am saved by grace thru Jesus Christ by dieing on the Cross... don't turn what I am saying

[22:10] <Gran-VHL> 5yes incense I do bleive that we need to keep them also

[22:10] <Tuesday-VHL> 3salvation is by grace of God alone, not by any works, lest someone would be able to boast

[22:10] <Clint-VHL> Sorry I don't mean to offend. This same confusion is discusse in Romans 11.

[22:10] <VCI-Bob> This conversation started because of the mention of Ephraim in Zech 10:7

[22:10] <incense11> rich.. that's the problem... God said to keep them, not me, and not to wait until heaven

[22:11] <Gran-VHL> 5I know what you are saying incense and yes you are a spirtial jew like the rest of us belivers

[22:11] <VCI-Bob> but that is not talking about non-Jewish believers

[22:11] <VCI-Bob> Incense, God did not tell me to keep the feasts

[22:11] <Rich-VHL> 7yes that is true incense

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[22:11] <Clint-VHL> Yes Bob, where or when did people start seeing Ephraim as gentile?

[22:11] <incense11> they are bibical feast... why not

[22:11] <VCI-Bob> sigh

[22:11] <VCI-Bob> read Galations

[22:11] <Clint-VHL> Nor me.

[22:12] <Rich-VHL> 7what is it Bob

[22:12] <skip-VHL> 4more theology than prophecy tonight

[22:12] <Gran-VHL> 5incense why do you think the Ephrain is a gentile??

[22:12] <Tuesday-VHL> 3isn't Zech 10:7 referring to all the 'lost tribes' of Israel?

[22:12] <Clint-VHL> You are right Skip.

[22:12] <incense11> you know keeping the feast and Sabbath is provoking the Jews to jeolousy,, not beating them with the word they don't believe in

[22:12] <VCI-Bob> yes, Tuesday, it is, I think

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[22:12] <Gran-VHL> 5yes who God promises to bring home

[22:13] <incense11> yes, lost tribes... but who is Gentiles then... ???

[22:13] <Tuesday-VHL> 3the LORD will gather them all home

[22:13] <VCI-Bob> that remants of all of the tribes would be regathered to the land and restored

[22:13] <incense11> there are only Jew or Gentiles

[22:13] <Gran-VHL> 5why do you think Ephram is gentile incense??

[22:13] <VCI-Bob> no, there is the Church, incense

[22:13] <incense11> right above your question

[22:13] <Clint-VHL> This teaching concerning the Englise speaking people being the "lost tribes" is in very much error.

[22:13] <skip-VHL> 4born gentile ...but not ..not born JEW... but am

[22:13] <Clint-VHL> English. sorry.

[22:14] <incense11> amen skip

[22:14] <Gran-VHL> 5clint:)

[22:14] <VCI-Bob> thats right, Clint

[22:14] <Gran-VHL> 5well clint some believe that our native americans are the lost tribes

[22:14] <VCI-Bob> "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31 NIV)

[22:14] <VCI-Bob> "Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God--" (1 Corinthians 10:32 NIV)

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[22:15] <incense11> yes Bob

[22:15] <Clint-VHL> I am amazed how much I have ran across this teaching lately.

[22:15] <VCI-Bob> See how Paul refers to the groups?

[22:15] <skip-VHL> 4AMEN BOB

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[22:15] <Rich-VHL> 7thats right Bob

[22:15] <VCI-Bob> you know that the root of it is, Clint, the same thing that Jesus battled against....

[22:15] <Clint-VHL> Couldn't have said it better that Paul and Bob.:-)

[22:16] <Clint-VHL> Yes I know.

[22:16] <incense11> what that Bob

[22:16] <Rich-VHL> 7we can't hurt any one in anyway

[22:16] <VCI-Bob> the general teaching of British Israelism or the like

[22:16] <VCI-Bob> that somehow we are elite and special to God because of our physical descendancy

[22:17] <VCI-Bob> did not Jesus deal with that?

[22:17] <skip-VHL> 4there is too much worry over pre-trib ,lost tribes, circumcision..etc and not enough on salvation thru CHRIST

[22:17] <incense11> ok if lost tirbes are only the 10 mentioned where did gentile come from

[22:17] <Rich-VHL> 7Amen skip

[22:17] <Clint-VHL> Exactly, and this is where the teaching that the church has replaced Israel cam from.

[22:17] <VCI-Bob> what do you mean where did the gentile come from Incense?

[22:17] <incense11> who are they

[22:18] <incense11> bible talks a lot about Gentiles

[22:18] <VCI-Bob> ok, this is not leading anyone to clarity and understanding - let's move on

[22:18] <Gran-VHL> 5clint from those that think we are special

[22:18] <Kathy-VHL> they are all other people who are not Jewish

[22:18] <Gran-VHL> 5and that so we replace Isreal

[22:18] <Clint-VHL> To answer that question Incense you must go back to Shem, Ham and Jeptha.

[22:18] <incense11> No we do not replace Israel

[22:18] <Tuesday-VHL> 3agreed wholeheartedly, Bob :)

[22:19] <VCI-Bob> :) Tuesday

[22:19] <incense11> God is about to turn His full attention back to her,, he never left her

[22:19] <Gran-VHL> 5incense the lost tribes assemalated into many of the heathen tribes that captured them

[22:19] <Rich-VHL> 7Bob what has the u.n. been up to lately

[22:20] <VCI-Bob> is the Word of God really this murky? no, it's very plain unless we listen to human teachers who murk it up

[22:20] <Clint-VHL> Incense the best that I can determine Gentile's, especially the white variety came from Jeptha when the sons of Noah was spread over the earth.

[22:20] <skip-VHL> 4I wear a cross and star of David ,people tell me it one negates the other .BUT you cant have one without the other or so i believe

[22:20] <incense11> so you people have a problem with me wanting to call myself Jewish or Israelite?

[22:20] <Gran-VHL> 5thats right skip

[22:20] <Gran-VHL> 5good for you

[22:21] <Clint-VHL> Not at all incense.

[22:21] <Kathy-VHL> no incense

[22:21] <VCI-Bob> you can call yourself an giraffe if you want to :)

[22:21] <Rich-VHL> 7thats rightskip Jesus came from the tribe of Judah

[22:21] <Gran-VHL> 5no incense we are all spiritial jews

[22:21] <incense11> I don't want to Bob

[22:21] <Tuesday-VHL> 3:)

[22:21] <Clint-VHL> But I just don't want anyone to be deceived about the scriptures.

[22:21] <Gran-VHL> 5bob you are being naughty

[22:22] <Gran-VHL> 5:)

[22:22] <incense11> even my Israeli's friends accept me and call me half Israeli

[22:22] <VCI-Bob> the point is, you can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't mean it is so

[22:22] <incense11> it is to me and God

[22:22] <farrell-VHL322> 2I don't want to be deceived either, Clint, and I have eleven grandchildren whom I don't want to deceive by leading them in wrong directions.

[22:22] <Gran-VHL> 5incense that is good and is good for you

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[22:22] <Gran-VHL> 5so I applade your stand

[22:22] <VCI-Bob> Welcome, Nina :)

[22:23] <Clint-VHL> Would I be out of order to know what denomination this comes from......thought so, sorry.

[22:23] <skip-VHL> 4a child of G_D is what I want to be called

[22:23] <incense11> well, and I just see God calling us all home, in the scriptures, that I mentioned, but whoa.......most of you don't

[22:23] <VCI-Bob> Incense, you are getting this teaching from others, right?

[22:23] <VCI-Bob> it's not your own idea

[22:23] <Rich-VHL> 7yes skip you are a son of God

[22:23] <VCI-Bob> you didn't sit down and get this from the Bible, but listened to others?

[22:23] <Tuesday-VHL> 3goodnight, everyone. God bless you all:)

[22:24] <Gran-VHL> 5incesnse we are not the lost tribes

[22:24] <skip-VHL> 4daughter rich:->

[22:24] <Clint-VHL> Incense I think you have us wrong. Maybe we are too zealous, but our intention is to help not hurt.

[22:24] <VCI-Bob> Night, Tuesday

[22:24] <Kathy-VHL> it is important that we know the truth so that we are not decieved

[22:24] <Rich-VHL> 7night tuesday

[22:24] <incense11> yes, but as I read them myself, I see God will call us all home,

[22:24] <Clint-VHL> Sorry Incense if I offended you.

[22:24] <skip-VHL> 4shalom TUESDAY

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[22:24] <Gran-VHL> 5god bless Tuesday

[22:24] <NINAOF2> Shalom all...

[22:24] <incense11> it's ok

[22:24] <Gran-VHL> 5and shalom

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[22:24] <Rich-VHL> 7hi nina

[22:24] <incense11> not offended

[22:25] <VCI-Bob> Incense, that's the problem with listening to human teachers, whoever they are - we buy into their little "special" approaches to the Bible

[22:25] <NINAOF2> hi rich

[22:25] <Bezalel-VHL> 2Hi, Ninaof

[22:25] <skip-VHL> 4HI NINAOf2

[22:25] <Clint-VHL> I'm really glad.:->

[22:25] <Gran-VHL> 5incense yes He will call us all home

[22:25] <Kathy-VHL> I have a lot to put together tonight I know you all do too

[22:25] <Gran-VHL> 5shalom Nina

[22:25] <Clint-VHL> That's true Bob.

[22:25] <NINAOF2> What are y'all talking about?

[22:25] <incense11> but Hebrew teachers speak the same,, we are Jew or Gentile

[22:25] <Clint-VHL> You don't want to know.:-)

[22:26] <NINAOF2> Hey, I have a great book that I am reading

[22:26] <Rich-VHL> 7sorry skip I just read you are a daughter of God thanks for telling me

[22:26] <Gran-VHL> 5incense we are saved gentiles

[22:26] <VCI-Bob> what about the church, incense? are you forgetting that?

[22:26] <Gran-VHL> 5believers as I prefer to call my self

[22:26] <skip-VHL> 4lol :-)

[22:26] <Bezalel-VHL> 2However, Bob, I do need some guidance in reading some scripture.....whether it be geographical or theological.

[22:26] <Rich-VHL> 7LOL too skip

[22:26] <incense11> no, but the church is asleep and do not recognize their Jewish roots and don't want to, and we have to for the bride to become one

[22:26] <NINAOF2> Has anyone here listened to Dwight Pryor's tapes?

[22:27] <Gran-VHL> 5yes Bob lets not forget that please

[22:27] <Gran-VHL> 5no Nina don't know him

[22:27] <Clint-VHL> Incense we need to understand our Jewish roots.

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> yes, Bez, teachers are good, but we run into problems when we buy into their own particular special approach, which is RAMPANT today

[22:27] <skip-VHL> 4but have been a tomboy allmy life rich

[22:27] <Rich-VHL> 7nope nina who is he

[22:27] <Clint-VHL> We just can't become Israel

[22:27] <VCI-Bob> people become DISCIPLES of this teaching or that teaching

[22:27] <NINAOF2> Rich, he is on this website

[22:27] <Kathy-VHL> We do not have any Jewish roots we are grafted a graft doe not have roots

[22:27] <NINAOF2> He teaches Hebraic Roots

[22:28] <Gran-VHL> 5yes Kathy

[22:28] <Rich-VHL> 7good for skip thats the way it should be I think

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[22:28] <Bezalel-VHL> 2That, I agree with. The problem is finding the teachers who remain faithful to the scripture, while assisting in interpretation.

[22:28] <Rich-VHL> 7you

[22:28] <VCI-Bob> look at all of the false and weird teachings that have permeated the church

[22:28] <VCI-Bob> right, Bez

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[22:28] <Kathy-VHL> he uses the examptl of being grafted in to a vine and if any of you have ever seen a plant grafted you know it does not have roots of its own

[22:28] <Clint-VHL> Is that Richard's brother NINAOF2?:-)

[22:28] <NINAOF2> Has anyone heard of the 2 house theory?

[22:28] <incense11> well, if you don't have Jewish roots, don't claim any promises or anything promised to Abraham and Jews then...

[22:28] <Rich-VHL> 7I'll have to check it out nina

[22:28] <Kathy-VHL> it becomes part of what it is grafted into

[22:29] <NINAOF2> Rich go to Jcstudies.com

[22:29] <VCI-Bob> ok, I'm tired, and going to call it a night

[22:29] <Bezalel-VHL> 2I do agree with Incense in the aspect that the Church does not recognize Israel's special place in the end-times.

[22:29] <Gran-VHL> 5Nina how does one find him if he is here have not seen him

[22:29] <VCI-Bob> thanks for your participation, everyone

[22:29] <Rich-VHL> 7Ok nina will tomorow

[22:29] <VCI-Bob> and feel free to keep on talking :)

[22:29] <NINAOF2> Gran go to Jcstudies.com

[22:29] <skip-VHL> 4and if the natural branches can be pruned out , more so can the grafted be pruned

[22:29] <incense11> sorry Bob.....I just believe

[22:29] <NINAOF2> His teaching is the best

[22:30] <Kathy-VHL> you can graft a pecan limb on to a willow tree trunk and the pecan branch will bear pecans but the wilow does not change and the pecan branch doesn;t change either separate but one

[22:30] <Gran-VHL> 5Ok Nina thanks I will

[22:30] <Gran-VHL> 5I need to go also family

[22:30] <Clint-VHL> Goodnight Bob, sleep well. Shalom.

[22:30] <NINAOF2> welcome Gran, do you study Hebrew Roots?

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